Tea Party talks taxes

Tea Party talks taxes

Nearly 100 residents of Fayette and Coweta counties made their way to the gazebo in downtown Fayetteville on April 16 for the “Tax Day Gathering” sponsored by the Fayette County Issues Tea Party. Speakers included Angela Bean on the Fair Tax, Bob Ross on the upcoming regional TSPLOST vote and Marty Harbin on “We the People.” Photo/Ben Nelms.

AtHomeGym
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S. Lindsey & eliminating agencies

you forget the EPA?

NUK_1
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YourPalMike: Solutions

First off, I totally agree with your premise of bloated military and it's way past time to re-define what the basic premise of having a Defense Dept is. "Promoting democracy everywhere in the world" is a noble concept and really scores well for politicians like Clinton(Bosnia), Bush(Iraq,Afghanistan) and Obama(Afghanistan,Libya, maybe Syria), but the means the USA is using to so-called promote democracy exists solely on a) bombing the hell out of the country like Bosnia that we had zero interests in besides wanting to use all the $$$ we spent on military technology b) invading/occupying Iran/Afghanistan c) sending in tons of Blackwater-style contractors to do the dirty deeds; sorry "advise." That BS has to end. It isn't "promoting democracy" whatsoever, especially when you notice the daily slaughter in the African continent that we happen to not give a damn about "promoting democracy" there.

Second, the Bush tax cuts simply need to end, not because it's bad fiscal policy but because it's horrible political policy. Everyone points right at the Bush tax cuts when discussing the ridiculous deficits we are running and too many think the quick-fix is to eliminate these cuts on the rich only and suddenly you have a balanced budget! Wheeeeee! Amazingly easy! So, Bush tax cuts end and that political football can't be kicked around and now politico's have to focus on REALLY getting serious for once.

Third, you're going to have to phase SS and Medicare into a lot different plans than what you see today because both will totally bankrupt the country otherwise in about 20 years. The kicking the can down the road stupidity has to end and we might have to be The Second Greatest Generation that ends it. It's very difficult these days to get people united around anything, but why not be the generation that sucked it up and dealt with it instead of putting it off on our kids and their kids? How the hell can we call ourselves anything like moral or responsible when we are greedily passing along a crushing burden to everyone who follows after us? The biggest blessing I have received in my life besides being adopted by incredible parents is that the generation before me was striving to make this country even better than it was and not kicking the can down the damn road. They have given us every opportunity and we have failed. Miserably.

Next, lower the corporate tax rate WAY down. Stop using the unholy tax code to pick winners and losers based solely on which party is in power at the moment, especially considering that all the "favors" don't go away when the other party takes control, they just get added on. Make this country a place to do business in again. At the same time you loosen everything up for corps, demand accountability. You can build your manufacturing plant and make as much money as possible, but when you dump your waste into our air,lakes,rivers,streams, you will pay a humongous price for doing so that you cannot afford to pay the second time. Free markets and less-than-oppressive regulations do NOT mean carte blanche to do whatever the hell u feel like and everyone chiming in with "well, they are creating jobs." The USA is not China or some 3rd world piece of garbage country and you can have success and "promote democracy" a lot better than lowering yourself down to the lowest common denominator.

The Federal gov't has no choice but to stop SPENDING SO MUCH MONEY. That means we all are going to have to bite the bullet gradually. You cannot do every cut in one year or make it magically disappear with the "Fair Tax" nonsense. The one part I know that is a fact: you do not get rid of deficits by spending more than you take in. You have to increase some revenues indeed, but the US is way too upside-down to where increased revenues will catch up with spending. That means that the sacred cows of agribusiness, the oil industry, the green industry, the mortgage deduction....that all has to go. Social welfare programs are going to get changed and dramatically altered. Hell, just going back to the clinton-era of "workfare" would be a tremendous improvement over the present.

You have to radically overhaul the immigration policy and enforcement of the USA. Illegals depress wages dramatically and the only reason it isn't a bigger issue already is that your key labor groups in the service industry(SEIU) think that these illegals will one day become "legal" and union members. Unions have shown time and time again they only care about themselves(Hello, Eastern Airlines?)to the point that they cut off their own noses to spite their face, but that's another discussion for another time. Getting "legal" in the US is a nightmare for people who want to follow the rules and go through all the procedures, and way too easy for those who want to be illegals. Look at about any other country's immigration policies and you'll quickly see how the US's is totally upside-down. The best and brightest you want to be here for their lifetimes and their offspring's lives etc. have to go through hell and back to become citizens and the people you want to stay out find it real easy to stay here illegally. This is an absurd situation and the American taxpayer foots the bill for it and the people who also suffer are the ones that almost every American would welcome to this country. WTF?

Last, change the mentality of "if it is legal, it's OK, if it's illegal, it's bad." This is a very amoral condition that permeates the US right now. It isn't going to go away with one, two or three elections either because it's a massive game-changer. First step is to end the War of People and then brace for the consequences of what happens when you stop telling people that they are only allowed to ingest government-approved chemicals into their own bodies and that it's illegal to play poker at your neighbor's house for money but OK to waste your money on State lotto's because IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN! Also, you cannot directly pay for sex, you have to be more subtle about it. Please. The more government regulates individual behavior, the less moral people become because they never had to make a choice in the first place or they thought "how stupid" and decided that everything else fit into that category.

Ok, I'm done for now :)

YourGoodPalMike
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Nice

That was awesome. I love it. I have nothing more to add. Well-put. :)

YourGoodPalMike
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This is good.

Ok. You guys are great, and that isn't sarcasm. I like it.

I realized when I posted that my solution was relatively simple (as in not specific or thoroughly effective), but I'm the only one who contributed a solution.

Labeling me "Comrademike" is an attempt to paint me as some kind of socialist/communist sympathizer, which I'm not. I support small business and love the entrepreneurial spirit of our nation.

But I'm not wrong when I state the following:

1. Our military is bloated. The military's budget doubled in the last ten years, and before it doubled it was higher than the rest of the world's military budgets...combined. That's a fact.

2. The majority of sharp increases in national
debt in the USA were due to war.

3. The majority of U.S. citizens favor keeping Social Security and Medicare.

4. If SS and Medicare are eliminated poverty and sickness will return to the same levels as before those programs were in place.

5. Obamacare was based on Romneycare, and the individual mandate wasn't Obama's idea. It came from Republicans.

6. The socialist bank bailouts on Wall Street came from Henry Paulson. He is the one who coined the term "Too big to fail.". He worked for the Bush Administration.

YourGoodPalMike
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Tax enough, eh!

Tax rates in the U.S. are at historic lows. Besides, most of your income taxes are spent on a bloated, inefficient military.

If you guys are really serious about understanding our national debt, look no further than the Defense Department (aka the War Department as it used to be called in a time of greater honesty).

Don't blame Social Security. It's self-funded and has always been debt-free. In fact, the federal government continually borrowed from SS to fund our bloated military in pointless wars.

Don't blame Medicare. It's also self-funded and has only become financially unstable recently due to big pharma and massive inflation in the medical field, due mostly to greed. Profit before patients.

You can blame welfare if you want, and there's something to be said about lazy people getting our money, but half of that is unemployment, and the other half is nowhere near he cost of these pointless wars.

Do you suggest we close the national parks, the Lincoln Memorial, the Smithsonian?

The solution to our national debt is so easy and only requires two steps:

1. Raise the tax rate on the rich. It won't hurt them a bit and it's not like their ten-year tax break has helped any of you or given you better job opportunities.

2. Radically cut the military budget. We can defend this land without constantly invading the wrong countries for no legitimate reason.

Debt problem solved.

Do you know why the federal budget was balanced throughout most of the 90s? The defense budget was half of what it is now and tax rates on the wealthy were moderately higher (but still dramatically lower than most of the developed world).

All these Tea Partiers do is make white, middle-age Americans look stupid for protesting the very thing they ignored and supported for eight years prior to Obama, and they look dumb because they vote against their own best interests again and again.

If you support the Tea Party because you think Obama is really a communist who hates America, then you're reasoning skills are extremely childlike and your thinking is very simple-minded.

If you really believe Obama is an African-born Muslim who will let terrorists take over America then you're either on drugs or ultra-paranoid. What navy is going to bring the Muslim terrorist armies across the ocean to invade and overwhelm our domestic forces and over 150 million gun owners? Last time I checked al queda didn't have any large navy vessels to transport tens of thousands of soldiers to our shores. The 20 dudes on 9-11 (which happened on Bush's watch) came here on student visas and learned how to fly in Florida, not the caves of Afghanistan.

The Democrats aren't perfect, no doubt, but they are the only party at least making an effort to represent and help the middle class. The Republican party only want the middle class vote, but has no interest in its welfare.

Wake up.

NUK_1
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No, it's actually math and reality instead
YourGoodPalMike wrote:

Tax rates in the U.S. are at historic lows. Besides, most of your income taxes are spent on a bloated, inefficient military.

Somewhat true. So far.

Quote:

Don't blame Social Security. It's self-funded and has always been debt-free. In fact, the federal government continually borrowed from SS to fund our bloated military in pointless wars.

Totally untrue. from the moment that Social Security was created, it became immediately in debt. People that had never paid a dime into the "system" that is called a "ponzi scheme" when implemented by anyone else immediately were able to obtain benefits. These benefits can only be paid by others who joined the system afterwards. SS has a massive amount of debt that is impossible to repay due to MATH and REALITY. There is no way in hell to pay-off the benefits of those working right now because there aren't enough new players being forcibly required to join the ponzi scam to pay off the others who previously were in it. That's a FACT.

To say that SS has no debt will in it is indebted to everyone who has ever paid into SS(and plenty who never have either) is totally false and intellectually pathetic. SS doesn't have near the money to pay off its obligations(regardless of govt stealing from it) and that's why it's so easy to predict the year when it goes totally bust.

Quote:

Don't blame Medicare. It's also self-funded and has only become financially unstable recently due to big pharma and massive inflation in the medical field, due mostly to greed. Profit before patients.

Medicare is not self funding and never was intended to be in the first place. Where the hell do u get that idea from? Here is a link from a non-conservative think tank that rather eloquently describes the situation:
http://baselinescenario.com/2011/07/25/understanding-the-budget-deficits/

Quote:

The solution to our national debt is so easy and only requires two steps:

1. Raise the tax rate on the rich. It won't hurt them a bit and it's not like their ten-year tax break has helped any of you or given you better job opportunities.

The Bush tax cuts in their entirety contribute about 120bil to the 1,4 trillion deficit. Just how much are u advocating taxes being raised here to make up for the massive shortfall? Are u also advocating that the 45% or so not paying a dime in Fed taxes start contributing too, or do u just want the "rich" to foot the whole bill? Since Obama and some of his idiot disciples of stupidity define "rich" as anyone making 250K a year, you might want to clarify this.

Quote:

2. Radically cut the military budget. We can defend this land without constantly invading the wrong countries for no legitimate reason.

I totally agree but what jobs are you going to give all the laid-off military people once you rightsize everything? do we expand govt programs out the wazoo to provide for all the ex-military? Liberals aren't going to go for "laying off" a bunch of people without giving loads of benefits and conservatives think you need everyone on the planet serving in the military "just in case," so good luck.

Oh yeah, the total Defense budget including everything is about 700bil.

You've wiped out the 120bil from the Bush tax cuts(assuming you hit up the people who have been paying nothing for years now) and let's say you "radically" cut the Defense budget by 50%(impossible but let's try it for theoretical argument). That's 350bil. Combined with the tax cuts goign away, the savings is...........470billion! Hey, that's about 1/3rd of our present annual deficit!

Quote:

Debt problem solved.

Sure, if you are totally math-illiterate like most people in the USA are. It all balances perfectly......more deficits every year of close to a trillion with your non-plan.

Quote:

Do you know why the federal budget was balanced throughout most of the 90s? The defense budget was half of what it is now and tax rates on the wealthy were moderately higher (but still dramatically lower than most of the developed world).

The federal budget was balanced for 2 years in the 90's if you exclude social security taking in(temporarily) more than it was paying out. Since then, government spending has soared in all areas. We now spend enough to have a 1.4 trillion dollar deficit that cannot be "solved" by slashing the military by 50% and also be eliminating the all the Bush tax cuts. We'd still be a trillion damn dollars in the hole! Why is this not totally obvious to anyone? Is American education this completely lousy?

It's not a Repub/Dem/Tea Party thing...it's common sense. You totally invalidate your own points by being totally ignorant of what you even propose. You claim taxing the rich and gutting the defense budget solves the debt issue when anyone with an IQ above a Dorito can easily see it does NOT in any way come close. Fortunately for you, you have plenty of company who will believe any simplistic BS or something they see on a bumper sticker without even thinking twice about researching the slogan or doing a little basic math.

S. Lindsey
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Nuk you just made me waste 20 minutes

I read comrademikes post and blew a gasket or two with the obvious "misconceptions" ok untruths that our comrade had stated.
I even had the same link to the Medicare scam that it is... I had already answered each point and then opened another window and saw your response...

Dang Libertarians always ahead of the rest of the crowd..

http://usdebtclock.org/

I just love Tax the Rich and everything will be ok crowd...

You can steal EVERY DIME from everyone that is "RICH" and it would only pay for 18 days of this Governments current spending budget.

The argument is ludicrous at best naive at worst.

Since you stole my thunder I will just use the lightning...

The top 1 percent of all income earners already pay 39.5 percent of all federal income taxes.

The top 1 percent of all income earners pay 28.1 percent of all federal taxes.

The top 20 percent of all income earners pay 86 percent of all federal income taxes.

Approximately 45 percent of all U.S. tapayers pay absolutely no income taxes at all.

Many U.S. households are now receiving more income from the U.S. government than they are paying to the government in taxes.

In 2010, the U.S. government paid out a combined $2.3 trillion in unemployment benefits, Social Security benefits, disability insurance, Medicare benefits, Medicaid benefits, benefits for veterans, education assistance and other direct transfers of cash from the government to individual citizens.

59 percent of all Americans now receive a government payout of one form or another.

Thanks to new corporate tax cuts in Japan, the United States now has the highest corporate tax rate in the developed world.

Clearly an unsustainable model.

NUK_1
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SLindsey...I probably wasted a lot of time too

Why did I feel compelled to even respond to a couple of very sweeping generalizations about the budget that fits into a 10 second sound-byte? If YourPalMike didn't put a lot of thought into posting it, why did I or you?

I think we just got our chains pulled on that one :)

S. Lindsey
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I seem to be doing that a lot lately..wasting time

trying to "educate/debate" certain members of our society. Discussing obvious issues with reason and facts can never outweigh the 15 second soundbite from Media Matters.

Instead of standing on the beach trying to figure out why the water is going out I think I will be headed for high ground.... See ya.

YourGoodPalMike
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Doritos

Are people too. I happen to know a lot of smart Doritos.

Seriously, you bring up a lot of excellent points, and you presented your argument in a rational, unbiased format.

And you're right. My solution was simplistic, but it's a start in the right direction.

You have some outstanding points. I wish all debate was like that.

What you wrote is much more specific and substantive than anything in the broadcast media.

So, give it your best shot: what steps would you suggest to fix the budget? You have to at least try.

DBarlow
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Taxed Enough Already Rally

Here's the link to the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaaiKZyZkkc
Enjoy!

YourGoodPalMike
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Still no solutions.

While you two stroke each other's egos, how about making an attempt at providing solutions.

I suspect that your true feelings are that we should continue keeping troops all over the world, the Bus Administration was just fine, our military budget is reasonable, and Fox News is fair and balanced.

You guys assume you're better at math than I am, but so far I'm beating you by 470 billion dollars a year when it comes to reducing annual deficits and the national debt.

It's your turn to put in some numbers.

Or are you just BSing us with a fake "I want smaller government" like most of the Tea Partiers who whistle and look away when you ask them about the expansion of government under the Bush Administration?

Beat my numbers, if you can (or wimp out with a "I won't debate ignorant people" statement and go play golf).

PTC Observer
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YourGoodPalMike

Well Mike, it is not the fact that those that would like to defend individual freedom have no solutions, it is the fact that the socialists don't like the solutions. In fact they believe that all this talk about reducing the size and scope of government is just "crazy fringe elements". Therefore, when they hear solutions like dismantling entire government departments their collectivists heads spin.

Well perhaps in a way they are correct that those that believe in individual freedom are "fringe", but the fundamental issue is which philosophy is sustainable, shows results and is based on fundamental freedoms?

The socialist agenda is only sustainable through force. Whether it be through force of law, like the Affordable Health Care Act, or through physical force like the National Socialist Party aka Nazis. Either way socialism is a forced "vision" of the way things should be based on a minority of intellectual elites. These folks truly believe that it is far beyond the grasp of the masses to know what is best for them. It is their vision and the force of the state that has the answers and solutions to all our society's problems. Naturally, it is they that need to lead us into this Utopian future as we are too ignorant to see their true "vision" of a perfect society. They manipulate the masses to believe simple minded approaches to government created problems or divide us into quarreling groups based on race, gender, age, or wealth. In the face of repeated socialist failures the blame goes to lack of funds or obstructionist or both. Since people don't always act as their leaders' vision dictates, they must be forced to act "for the good of the country", so they can make the "right choices". Naturally, the end point is all about power vested in the form of an all powerful government that controls every aspect of commercial and personal action with the intention of making us, against our will, to be equal in all things.

This egalitarian future is contrasted to an idea that individuals should be free to choose based on their individual preferences and needs. That through free market exchange the wants and needs of individuals are most effectively fulfilled by free decisions. "Embracing free-market capitalism means embracing the freedom to change, to innovate, to invent.....It means making place for new technologies, new scientific theories, new forms of art, and new identities and new relationships. It means embracing the freedom to create wealth, which is the only means to the elimination of poverty....It means celebrating human liberation and realizing human potential." It is the absence of overwhelming government control that the best decisions are made to fulfill needs and wants of a society. It is supported by the notion that we are all free but not equal in our abilities, skills and talents. It is the system that has shown consistent positive results by increasing the wealth of humankind.

Which world do we want, one in which we continually look to the state to solve problems at the expense of our individual liberty? Or one where the collective knowledge of millions of people make decisions that make our lives better through free exchange? Who should we trust to make the right decisions about our lives? Us or the state?

So Mike, if you want solutions begin by reducing the size and scope of the government or is this not the "solution" you are seeking?

S. Lindsey
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Like to see those numbers comrade

Department of Energy-Gone 24.1 Billion
Departmental of Education-Gone 102.1 Billion
Department of Housing-Gone 43.7 Billion
Department of Agriculture-Gone 95.8 Billion
Commerce Dept-NIST subsides-Gone 0.5 Billion

Let's see so far that's $265.3 Billion each and every year/

Let's continue...

Homeland Security-Gone 56.7 Billion
International Aid-DAP Program 4.6 Billion
Justice Dept Grant program-gone 8.1 Billion
Department of Labor-Gone 6.5 Billion
NSF reduction 2008 levels 2.1 Billion
Department of Transportation 48.1 Billion

...and finally repeal/revoke Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

$1.76 TRILLION

$2.744 Trillion dollars....... Tag your it.

Oh and BTW- That's before we end the Wars and put the troops on the border stopping illegal immigration...and reforming Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.

Just add another Trillion or two or four....

Mike like I have told others it is not our job to provide "solutions". Our job to is to monitor Government and stop abuse.

WE have failed..

We have failed to send fiscally responsible representatives to DC. Instead we have allowed special interest groups along with the entitlement crowd to dictate the spending policies of our Government.

The predictable result is a $16 Trillion dollar debt and Trillion dollar annual deficits for as long as we can see.

Mike the "Comrade" shot was to get you to think about "The Party". You see in Communism the party is paramount. The Party cannot be questioned. The Democrat "Party" is starting to look more like the Party in Russia then a Political Party in America.

You don't like the Teaparty ok I get it... But where is the Citizen organized group that is trying to hold the Democrats feet to the fire? The Occupy group?

The Teaparty at least is trying, not in all cases, to hold both Parties to account and what is so wrong with that?

G35 Dude
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S. Lindsey - And may I add.
Quote:

According to a 2005 report from the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the efficiency cost of the current tax system — the output that is lost over and above the tax itself — is between $240 billion and $600 billion every year.[9][10] Supporters argue that the FairTax system would reduce these compliance and efficiency costs by 90% and return a larger share of that money to the productive economy.

Implementing the Fair Tax would offer another substantial savings opportunity.

S. Lindsey
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G35 correct

Our current tax structure is inefficient at best.

The Fair Tax would ensure everyone paid into our tax base even tourist.

The more your make (Rich) will be taxed the most because they spend the most. Those that make the least (poor) are taxed the least.

Sounds like Obama should be all over it.

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