Remember train called ‘City of New Orleans’? Remember July 31
Wednesday, May 2, 2012 - 8:17am
Submitted by Letters to the ...
Submitted by Letters to the ...
Those who are about my age might remember a song, “The City of New Orleans.” It was Arlo Guthrie’s biggest hit and was also recorded by Willie Nelson, John Denver, Johnny Cash, Hank Snow, Judy Collins, Jerry Reed and others.
The song is about a passenger train that went from Chicago to New Orleans.
Private companies, who need to make a profit, were getting out of the passenger train business in the 1950s and ‘60s as the automobile and the airplane became better options for the great majority of people. That’s why this passenger train “got the disappearing railroad blues.”
What happened to that train? The federal government, Amtrak, took it over in 1971 along with many other passenger trains. Some supporters of the Amtrak legislation thought that the subsidy would fade away and others thought that Amtrak would support itself. Both were wrong, after 40-plus years, it’s still there and still losing money.
The Public Purpose website cites a U.S. Department of Transportation published report from 2002, studying the years 1990 to 2002. Amtrak subsidies per one thousand passenger miles were $210.31 in 2002.
The “subsidies” for automobiles was minus $1.79. Drivers more than paid for themselves through federal fuel taxes. The government quit producing this report.
Passenger rail is the most subsidized form of transportation there is. Supporters will try to convince you otherwise but it should be obvious to all.
According to Subsidyscope, in 2008 the train City of New Orleans lost $109.91 per passenger carried. You picked up that tab so a select few people can take a leisurely trip from Chicago to New Orleans and enjoy the gourmet meals served on the train.
Local trains are just as bad. They are used by a similar small percentage of travelers/commuters. Due to the population density in the Atlanta area, ridership will be even lower here than elsewhere. Some of these train riders don’t own, or drive, the automobiles that these trains supposedly take off the road. Trains don’t pay for themselves, and they don’t “untie the knots.”
The TSPLOST is filled with projects that were elected for us by our “representatives.” You can believe that some of these projects were selected for their “political value,” to help “sell” the SPLOST to voters, as opposed to their transportation value, and will be useless for improving transportation options in the Atlanta area.
You can also be 100 percent sure that the projects on the list will cost more than the estimates we’ve been given.
That means that the list cannot be completed with the funds that the “10 year” SPLOST can generate.
What government transportation projects can you name that did not cost more than the original estimates? Which ones will be done first, which ones will be started but not completed and which ones will be deferred until the next “10 year” SPLOST? Where will the projects you support fall in that list; done, not completed or deferred?
If you’re ever thinking about voting for the TSPLOST, just think of the song’s lyrics, “15 cars and 15 restless riders, 3 conductors, 25 sacks of mail.” If you don’t want to keep financing those “15 restless riders” forever, vote NO on TSPLOST.
Peter Pfeifer
Peachtree City, Ga.
[Pfeifer is a former Fayette County commissioner.]
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 2:25pm
#2
Bad comparison
Okay I get it that you are anti TSPLOST but your argument would be better if you stuck to true points of comparison. The issue is not how the current proposal compares to other transportation projects, government efficiency, or an old train from Chicago. A logical decision needs to be made based on what the current proposal will do in comparison to the current transportation situation.
As for old trains - the City of New Orleans ran on tracks that were built long ago. This prevents any operator from using more modern equipment. The trestles running from Chicago to New Orleans will not accommodate taller train cars.
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 5:59pm
#3
Mr. Drake my error
When I read your post this morning, I reacted too fast but when someone I don't even know calls my integrity into question, which you have, I can be too quick.
I “cut and pasted” the link you gave to the Report and that led me to the incorrect Report. Later, I used your link and saw that I had looked at the wrong Report. I wasn't able at that time to correct my post but I am now.
Please disregard what I said specifically about the first Report. My general comments are still true however.
The correct Report is much more detailed than the incorrect one. I'll have to take some time to look it over. I'll be looking for the following;
This report cites GDOT's record. How much experience do they have building rail? I think none.
The state listed as “3rd Best”, California has had a little trouble estimating recently. The cost of their proposed “Bullet Train” has risen from the initial estimate of $43 billion. Cost estimates are now $98.5 billion and they haven't built a thing yet.
In your Report, what are they using for comparison? The initial estimates (like we have for TSPLOST now), or the Bid price and the 85% is the overrun of the bid price? I'd think they are using the bid price. My experience has been that the initial estimates are much lower than the bids.
I'd wonder how much the finished costs compare to the initial estimates.
And, by this very Report, costs will be AT LEAST 15% higher than budgeted. That means that AT LEAST 15% of the projects won't be completed. I think it will be a much higher percentage that can't be completed with the “initial” 10 year TSPOST. So my question stands. Which ones will fall out?
I also see that another post refers to you as “a concrete pusher”. My position is that I care if you're right or wrong. I don't dispute you because of who you are. I just say that you're wrong.
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 11:22am
#4
No Offense Intended
It wasn't intended as a personal attack but when you pose the question, "What government transportation projects can you name that did not cost more than the original estimates?", the implication is that transportation projects are always, or at the very least routinely, over budget and that is clearly misleading based on the facts of this report.
The comparisons you reference are between the original bid award amount and the final cost of the project. I don't doubt your assertion that initial estimates are often less than the actual bid award amount but in at least the last few years that I have held my position as the Executive Director of the Georgia Concrete Paving Association, quite the opposite has been true as bid award amounts have routinely been significantly lower than original estimates. I'm sure that rises and falls with the economy.
I suspect you are correct that GDOT has little or no experience building rail as that is not their mission, nor are they assigned that responsibility with the TSPLOST projects. That is GRTA's responsibility and I will have to admit that since I am the pavement guy, I don't follow GRTA's performance results nearly as closely as I do GDOT. However, I will see what I can gather.
Check your math on your assertion that the report proves that at least 15% will be higher than budgeted. There is not a direct correlation to the number of projects over budget and the amount that they are over budget. For instance, you'll see on the Executive Summary that Oregon, Missouri and Arkansas aren't even in the top three at delivering projects within budget but all three average a net underrun on budget.
I appreciate your willingness to discuss this despite the fact that my member companies clearly have something to gain. Folks like PTC Observer and Ginga try to diminish my opinion on that basis because they are unable or unwilling to argue the facts. Another essential fact is that I am a very involved citizen of Fayette County who believes this referendum is a very big step in the right direction and has just as much freedom of expression as the naysayers. I get it that people want to make sure that the project list is a good one but I'm just making sure people are dealing with facts and not preconceived notions.
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 8:50pm
#5
Mr. Drake, City of New Orleans still loses money
I realize that defending the indefensible, TSPLOST, must be difficult.
I believe that your remark was intended as a personal attack due to the choice of the word, disingenuous. If you did not mean any offense, select a different word. I stand by the “implication” that transportation projects are typically over budget, rail in particular.
Now that I've had a chance to look at a little of your Report, I can see that the figures for Georgia DOT say that 85% of their projects were on budget. I don't see which projects were over budget and by how much. I do see that they aren't in the top 3 for “Average amount over budget per project”. That's not good.
Do I need a password to see more detailed information? Do you have one?
And, the fact remains. Even if GDOT is really good compared to other state agencies, we do know that the projects will cost more than the TSPLOST estimates that we're voting on.
So, the project list is a bit superfluous, in that we can be certain that not all projects can be completed but we don't know which ones. I do believe that if rail projects are begun, they will absorb the funds needed to keep them going even if the road projects aren't completed. It's called sunk costs.
And, over and above the TSPLOST capitol projects, we'll be on the hook for the operating expenses which has been the proven history of trains. That was the point of my original letter. Trains lose money and trains don't move enough people to “untie” any knots.
You still haven't responded to those points. Can you give us any examples of trains that are profitable or break even? Can you give us some examples where transit moves enough people to “untie the knots”?
I'd guess you prefer to focus on the project list because it was selected to help your case; “Untie the knots”. We just believe that the project list, with the massive investments in transit, will not be completed, that the projects were selected to get our votes, and that we'd be taxed forever for those “15 restless riders”. And, that it will not untie those knots.
Regards
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 7:48am
#6
Not Personal
It was not intended as a personal attack. I was trying to be more diplomatic than just saying you are wrong, which you are, but in retrospect it was a poor choice of words.
I don't have a password for additional information. Because of my job, I hear about different studies and reports and I just googled this one and found it. I'm looking at the same info as you. Another report I have and I'm trying to find on the web so you can have it too is that from July 2010 through February 2012, GDOT completed 158 projects with original bids of $2,341,194,671 for the completed price of $2,360,416,832 which is less than 1% over budget. I know that the 9.7 miles of I-85 in Coweta County that had lane replacement and new capacity had an initial bid of $107,495,040 and came in at $108,185,954 which is also less than 1% over and that the widening of GA74 in Fayette County that was recently completed bid at $16,906,823 but was completed for $16,712,362 which is about 1% under budget. Not too shabby!!
It is not a fact that the projects will costs more than estimated. Say it all you want but I do not cede you that point.
I think you will also find that much of this mass transit that everyone is so in an uproar about is not fixed rail. A lot of it is dedicated bus service which you can argue the merits of whether that is a good solution but it does not have the sunk costs of fixed rail. I will do my best to go through the list of projects and break those numbers out.
I will cede your point that the project list was selected to get your votes. If the legislature had the nerve, they would have raised the much needed funds in a more appropriate way like raising the gas tax (which can only go to roads and bridges) and then let transportation professionals pick the best projects instead of mayors and county commissioners. That being said, our representatives did a good job of getting projects that are important to Fayette County and essentially kept us from being a donor county. For that, they have been pilloried by the likes of Ginga and her ilk.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 5:41pm
#7
Jpopeye & Mr. Drake
Save the excuses, jpopeye. The “logical decision” is to vote NO, if you'd simply admit that old or new trains, trains with new or old equipment, taller or shorter cars, trestles, etc. will always require major subsidies and will never carry enough people to make a difference in traffic. If you disagree, please name some examples of trains that don't require constant taxpayer funding to make up for capitol and operating shortfalls and any transportation networks that have trains and no road congestion as a result.
Mr. Drake, be careful. Someone (not me, of course) may accuse you of being “disingenuous” too.
You still want to compare bids to completed cost when a fair TSPLOST evaluation would be between the estimated costs and the completed costs.
You still want to compare GDOT past road performance with the projects listed in the TSPLOST which are majority transit projects involving GRETA & MARTA.
You still won't admit that trains aren't going to “untie the knots”.
And, your comments about how our representatives “did a good job of getting projects important to Fayette County and essentially kept us from being a donor county”. Doesn't that assume that the projects important to Fayette County will actually be built, even though we know that the projected tax receipts cannot cover the actual completed construction costs? If those “important projects” aren't built, wouldn't that make us a donor county? Don't you think we'll be a “donor county” in the future to subsidize the mass transit built with this TSPLOST?
Regards
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 9:24am
#8
Mr. Drake, "Ginga and her ilk"
Mr. Drake, I am getting a little bit tired of your "Ginga and her ilk." This is not the first time you have referred to me in that manner. I assume you are using the term "ilk" to denote a derogatory connotation.
Whatever you intention, I consider my "ilk" pretty good folks to have on my side.
However in this forum, you seem to be an "ilk" unto yourself
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 10:18am
#9
"Ginga and her ilk" is appropriate
While Mr. Drake may be advocating a position I disagree with, he's totally right about that comment. Anyone who worships Steve Brown is very suspect, to go along with ignorant/stupid/naive/gullible/etc.
You and your ilk make a big deal every week ad nauseum about the "Lester family ties" and anything else you can find, but make no mention whatsoever about supporting a guy in FC Commoish McCarthy who had 3 outstanding liens on him, two of which had nothing to do with his RV fiasco. It's shown that your ilk will support ANYONE who happens to agree with you no matter what. Your best buddy here "pips" couldn't wait to throw the EFB folks under the bus if it meant she wasn't affected instead.
Your constant defense of the Worst Mayor in History Don Haddix when you don't even live in PTC to begin with is another worthy moment in the "Ginga and her ilk" history.
"Ginga and her ilk" fits and you wear it proudly so why get bothered by Drake pointing out the obvious?
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 11:55am
#10
Mr. Drake, Nuk, and istilldontknow
Mr. Drake has referred to what goes on with these comments as a "debate" of the facts.
However, a constant referral to different individuals' intelligence or "kind" with a derogatory connotation isn't a debate of facts pertaining to the Regional T-SPLOST. It is a tool used to put someone at a psychological disadvantage by intimidation.
Until now, I have never referred to Mr. Drake's, Nuk's, and/or istilldontknow's intelligence or "ilk."
I get it. You don't like me, and you don't agree with me. I tried to protect my family's property against our local government. Apparently some folks in Fayette County think it is fine for county officials to favor large landowners and developers over small taxpaying land owners. That is your right.
It seems that some folks can only think in terms of "the common good" over individual rights. Which came first, "common good" or "communism?"
I have a right to speak for what I believe, also.
The difference is that I am able to do that without referring to someone as "ignorant, stupid, naive, gullible/etc." and without throwing in several "ilks" along the way. If I am asked a question, I am able to give an answer without resorting to a belittling, demeaning remark. If I don't know the answer, I have no problem admitting that I just plain don't know.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 12:47pm
#11
Ma'am, I didn't attack you as any of those things here...
...but you use emotional arguments to attempt to persuade others to your opinion that are occasionally rooted in hubris instead of reason.
Let me ask - how would you improve traffic in Atlanta?
I believe that the best way is actually a little personal responsibility. Let's take for example my case - I work downtown. I make a conscious effort to leave home earlier than the normal flow of traffic and purposely avoid major bottleneck points whenever possible. I try to give plenty of distance between vehicles and not excessively speed, tailgate, or contribute to dangerous driving habits. In my case, van pools and transit don't make financial sense to me based on where I live and when I need to be at work and at home for the rest of my life. While the TSPLOST isn't the solution for everything (nothing ever is), I'll be happy to pay a penny per dollar on paying for improvements.
If employers can't/won't shift working hours to accommodate the traffic patterns to reduce overall traffic on major roads, and if drivers themselves won't avail themselves of the variety of alternatives available to them to encourage growth in those things (leave early/stay late, van pools, ride shares, park and rides to transit, transit in areas it exists in population centers), then we are in the position we are in in Atlanta.
I choose to live in Fayette County and work in Atlanta. I don't choose, however, to deny others their own flexibility in how they live their lives. Unfortunately, many others choose to maximize their home time in exchange for traffic jams and independence, and they choose to force their opinions and "rugged individualism" as the only solution that will work.
How would you fix this issue? Should we tell people where they can live and work? Should we tell people they're on their own in getting to work on time? I guess employers should just expect folks to show up whenever without worrying about the effect it has on business.
The role of government IS the look at the common good, in fact, our society is a balance of the common good versus individual liberties, and we have to have some trade-offs. Yes, it sucks that the government will sometimes take "the needs of the many against the needs of the few, or the one", but that's what they SHOULD DO. That's what I believe we should ALL DO to an extent - the ability for me to throw a punch in the air stops when it reaches another person's body.
Remember, your descendants (and mine too, all of us) stole the land we live on from someone else, so we've always taken the common good above the individual's needs...
I believe the best solution if someone doesn't like the way things are going is to change their situation instead of attempting to force others to be denied instead.
So if you want, vote no for the TSPLOST, but know that one day, "progress" will still run us all over. I for one want to give it a go, so I'll vote YES.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 3:44pm
#12
istilldontknow, I Don't Know
Traffic in Atlanta is a problem! I'm sure that problem isn't going to go away. I don't know how to fix the traffic problem in Atlanta.
My husband drove from Fayette County to work in Atlanta for almost 45 years. He timed his drive just the way you time yours.
I worked in Atlanta for many years. I even rode MARTA to Atlanta and transferred from there to DeKalb County to work in the DeKalb Superior Court for many years. Then in the afternoons my commute was reversed.
We are very familiar with the trials and tribulations of commuting to work.
Some things can't be fixed. Sometimes we just have to make the best of a bad situation. We know all about living, on a daily basis, with a bad situation that was supposedly for the "common good."
I think we all agree that the traffic in the City of Atlanta needs to be improved upon. However, I disagree with the method our government has basically dictated we should implement to bring about that improvement.
When the government says that if certain counties don't approve a tax, those counties will be punished, that doesn't sit well with me. The last time I looked, I still live in the USA, not China, Russia, etc.
Throwing good money after bad is not a great idea. Bob Ross with the Fayette County Issues Tea Party has done an extensive study of the issues surrounding the 2012 Regional T-SPLOST. You can see all of his data by visiting the FCITP site.
Since you intend to vote "YES," and I will most certainly vote "NO" for the T-SPLOST, our votes will cancel each other out.
Look at us, istilldontknow, we have actually managed to communicate with each other without referring to our "Ilks" or any other derogatory terms.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 10:20am
#13
I agree with Mr. Drake!
ilk = type or sort
It appears that there is an ilk that doesn't want new roads.
It appears that there is an ilk that wants Fayette County to be something it's never going to be again - a pasture with everyone having 20 acres on their property.
It appears there is an ilk that wanted to shut the door to this County about 25 years ago, right after they got settled in.
It appears there is an ilk that doesn't want to raise taxes to fund, well, just about anything, from what I've read.
It appears there is an ilk that will use fear, misunderstanding and doubt to cloud rational arguments to try to help improve our region.
It appears there is an ilk that might unfortunately succeed in getting enough folks to rally around the "taxed enough already" hooey.
I think that ilk needs to move.
I'm not alone, either - and I'll be voting FOR the TSPLOST. Some improvement is better than none at all.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 8:28am
#14
Why not raise the gas tax?
And let everyone pay?
With more fuel effecient cars, folks are paying less and less per mile as it is.
Me thinks this tsplost is designed to keep Marta afloat. I will vote no.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 4:04pm
#15
True Story
Back in 2010 when the legislature was debating the Transportation Investment Act (which people now call the TSPLOST), I went to see a state senator who was in a leadership position and appealed to him to get busy fixing our transportation problems immediately by raising the gas tax instead of passing a referendum that had to be voted on two years down the road. He told me that it would have to be raised 25 cents to be worthwhile and I told him to raise it 2 cents a month for a year and we'd be there a year ahead of the referendum even going for a vote. He told me that he thought that was a great idea but unfortunately he was running for re-election and there were 50 other guys out there running for re-election.
The moral of the story is that our legislature, under great pressure from the "no new taxes, no how, no way" crowd, has no political will to raise the gas tax and instead wants us all to decide if we want our taxes raised. They know it needs to be done. They just don't want to hear about it come election time.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 8:48am
#16
That's exactly what they will do, spyguy
They have to go through the motions of promoting the transportation tax so that all the media and pr firms and indeed the lobbyists can have a healthy cash flow during the promotional period. Then the voters say no, the politicians say we tried and immediately the political will (and even political cover) exists to raise the tax on gas.
I agree that it would be simpler and more efficient to just do that now, but people in government don't think that way.
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 3:07pm
#17
Peter - Mr. Drake
is pushing concrete, it's his job.
Facts shouldn't get in the way of this selling and lobbying effort, so calling people liars is par for the course. All with a friendly smile mind you.
After all it’s the American way, lobby for a tax to line the pockets of those close to the political apparatchik at the expense of the many.
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 4:45pm
#18
PTCO - Please Let Me Know
where the facts I presented are incorrect. The facts are as I stated them that GDOT is number one in the nation at delivering projects within budget and number two at delivering them on time. I see that Mr. Pfeifer has pulled his counter to my response, no doubt because he has seen the error in his statements.
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 10:43pm
#19
Mr. Drake
Let me know where I am wrong too.
As for the GDOT good for them, within budget and on time. Now is that a good thing or a bad thing?
I guess it all depends on how much it costs and how much time it takes to get it done.
GDOT hired Greiner Engineering Services in 1981 to study a bridge replacement over the Savannah River. In July, 1987, bids were opened for the construction of the mainspan, a cable stayed span. The contract was awarded to Guy F. Atkinson Company and S.J. Groves & Sons Company for $25,702,607. The project was completed and opened to traffic in March of 1991. The approaches and related roadwork was contracted separately in 1988 to The Hardaway Company for $45,202,502. Their work was completed in 1991.
Only ten short years to plan and build a 1 mile bridge at a total cost of $242 million adjusted for inflation.
Under budget and on time.....is that good? I guess it depends if your selling concrete.
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 11:14pm
#20
Wow
So GDOT builds about $1 billion plus worth of projects yearly and you have to go back 20 years to pick a bad one as your example. I really don't think I have anything left to prove. Thanks for your help!!
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 10:17pm
#21
OK Mr Drake
Ipad gone wild 2
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 10:18pm
#22
OK Mr Drake
Ipad gone wild 1
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 10:17pm
#23
OK Mr Drake
Why are the toll booths still in place on Ga 400?
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 4:42pm
#24
Two Reasons
I had no involvement in that decision but there are two reasons I can think of:
1) Althogh GA400 is paid for, it still has an enormous amount of traffic which requires significant maintenance and will eventually require additional capacity. That money has to come from somewhere.
2) In 2010, when the decision was made to keep the tolls, state motor fuel receipts had dipped from over $1 billion per year to about $850 million. I suspect the Governor saw it as a way to offset that 15+% decline.
That being said and as I have noted on here already, it was a promise to take down the tolls but it is the law that the TSPLOST will sunset after 10 years or when the project money is raised, WHICHEVER COMES FIRST.
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 9:36pm
#25
Mr. Drake - It's
It's an example Mr. Drake.
There is not enough space on this blog for all the examples of "on budget, on time" projects that go on continuously in this state. I suppose if you stacked them end to end they would go to the moon and back, all in concrete of course.
As for the twenty year delay, you have to go back pretty far to find a good example of a project that was finally "completed". As you know, a billion dollars a year doesn't go as far as it use to. The price of concrete has gone up considerably.
The fact is that you will support any tax that takes money from someone else to line your pockets and the pockets of your concrete pals.
That's your job, we get it. That's why they call it crony capitalism.
BTW, in order to "prove" something you first must have credibility and this is something you will never have because of your current sales job.
Hope this "helps".
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 9:09am
#26
Stick to the Facts
I have often said on the pages of this blog that it is a worthwhile debate whether the Final Investment List is the right mix of projects but it is disingenuous to imply that our transportation department can't deliver a project on budget or time when quite the opposite is actually true. This study from the National Cooperative Highway Research Program shows that GDOT is number one in the nation at delivering projects within budget and number two in the nation at delivering them on time (it's 46 pages but see page 3 for the summary). You can debate the project list all you want and it's important that we do but stick to the facts so that it is an honest and worthwhile debate.
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/docs/NCHRP20-24(37)A(01)_FR.pdf
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 2:28pm
#27
"Estimates, Projections, and Forecasts" Are Not Facts
Mr. Drake, the words, "estimates, projections, forecasts, and predictions," don't do anything to give taxpayers a sense of security.
Those words are used as a means of covering any eventuality. For example, the price of concrete goes up before the project is finished.
Please provide us with five MAJOR Georgia Department of Transportation projects that were delivered within budget and on time. Please give us a link where we can see the budgeted figures and actual costs for those 5 projects. We need some black and white figures.
The average taxpayer has to live within their budget to make sure they have enough left to pay for the cost increases that governmental agencies have incorrectly predicted.
Governmental agencies don't have to stay within budget because they know the average taxpayer will have to be there to pay for the over-runs.
MARTA has never been able to break even with its rail and bus service. Based upon dwindling ridership on MARTA, what makes you think that the TSPLOST projects, if approved, could ever operate in the black? And what about the funding AFTER the TSPLOST expires in ten years. It gets renewed, right? Courtesy of the "ten county taxpayers."
There are just too many vague terms built into the Regional T-SPLOST. I won't vote in favor of it and I won't advise any of my friends or relatives to vote in favor of it.
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 5:00pm
#28
Is Your Life Black and White
Ginga, I often wonder how you get through life not being able to deal with "estimates, projections, forecasts and predictions". Do you always know how much money is coming in each month and how much is going out or do you have to make your family budget on projections. If not, how do you cope with that? How about the salesman who cares for his family on sales he's not sure he will have but is willing to estimate? Should he give up that potentially lucrative position because he doesn't know exactly how it will pan out? Or maybe companies like Apple and Microsoft (or any of thousands of other companies) should quit developing products because they don't really know if the market will accept them.
Fortunately, most intelligent people can plan their lives based on good estimates, projections, forecasts and predictions, particularly when they have sound historical information on which to base them. Clearly, GDOT has that sound historical data and is very good at utilizing it so please drop this absurd argument that we shouldn't invest in much needed transportation infrastructure because we don't know exactly how much it will cost. Life doesn't work that way.
I don't work at GDOT or have direct access to the information you requested but because I enjoy proving you wrong, I will gather five projects for you.
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 8:40pm
#29
Ginga - You don't
get it, it doesn't matter how much it costs when you are spending other people's money. The GDOT has good historical data to prove it.
Wed, 05/02/2012 - 10:27pm
#30
PTC, You Are So Right
Absolutely!! Couldn't have said it better!!
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 2:38pm
#31
News Flash
Roads and bridges are almost always built with public funds, i.e. other peoples' money. That's kind of their nature. That being the case, the question then becomes is the public authority, in this case GDOT, doing a good job sheparding those funds and the answer is clearly yes.
Thu, 05/03/2012 - 9:57pm
#32
Mr. Drake - News flash
read some history, it hasn't always been so.
Consider this, what is the catalyst for the never ending traffic in large American cities? Could it be the idea that the roads are "free", that someone else pays for them? If we had roads where you paid to use them some interesting things would happen. Can you guess what those things might be Mr. Drake?
Unfortunately, for you, the outcome would be a lot less concrete. But you know what? We wouldn't be paying for unnecessary road expansions either. We wouldn't be paying for roads we don't use. We would burn a lot less energy. We would have population distributions that were rational. Our commutes would be a lot shorter. Yes, all sorts of interesting things would happen when people actually paid for the things they use.
Until we start looking at things the way they are and not the way we think they should be, we will have an veritable explosion of concrete production. I guess that's the whole point though, right Mr. Drake? Concrete.
BTW, public authorities are notoriously inefficient. After all it's not their money.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 7:10am
#33
Try To Get Out A Little Bit
So roads that you have to pay to use aren't used as much, is that your assertion? I recommend you try being "GA400 Observer" for a day and see if that road (it's a toll road, in case you've never been up there) is used less or is less congested because drivers have to pay to use it.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 1:45pm
#34
Mr. Drake - Why
Why......yes, I am saying that people will use things less if they have to actually pay for them. If I pay for them they will use them more because they aren't actually paying for them. Do you understand this simple economic concept?
Let me give you an example, you like examples. Let's say that I tell you you can go and get as much gasoline as you want, I and all of your fellow citizens will pay for all you can use. What do you think you would do? You would drive and drive an drive. You'd fill up your new car(s) that you could suddenly afford. Come on, you know you would. Now let's suppose we said we wouldn't do that anymore for you. In fact, let's say that in order to drive your car, the old one, you would have to buy gasoline at $50 per gal. What do you think you would do? Now try and take this simple example and extend it to the concept of roads. If you use the road your on, you pay to use it. If you don't use the road, well then you don't pay for it... come on you can understand it if you just try.
GA400 is a bad example. Why?? Well it's a low fixed fee. It is likely used less but not much less. Besides everyone knows that its temporary...or maybe not. I think they are about to use a lot of concrete up there and they have extended the "fee" about 20 more years. I am sure you're smiling.
The HOV lanes on 85 now that's a better example, the more crowded the road becomes the more you pay. Why do you think they did this Mr. Drake? Could it be to get people to use it less during heavy drive times? Generally, it's the same concept as the first paragraph. Only, it's the state that gets the money, so they can squander it on more concrete somewhere else.
So, in your world if they have suspended the laws of economics have they canceled out the law of gravity too?
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 4:28pm
#35
Reason Is Suspended Too
That's the only reason I can figure I keep having these asinine conversations with you.
I get the concept of paying for use. It's important to have some skin in the game so you care about how things are used, maintained, etc. I try to convey that to my kids so they take personal responsibility for their belongings and actions. But how far do you want to take it since you are so big into extreme examples? Should you have to pay a toll when you leave your driveway? I don't know where you live but I doubt many of your fellow citizens use your street every day. Why should they be responsible for the construction and upkeep of your street? Are you some kind of socialist or something? What about 74 and 54? Those are state routes. What right do you have driving on a road and expecting the rest of Georgia taxpayers to pay for it? How greedy are you?
Do you get the point or are you really PTC Obtuse? It's not practical to pay for all roads that way. You're not John Galt so quit pretending you navigate life without interdependence on others.
Sun, 05/06/2012 - 1:21pm
#36
Mr. Drake - Why
Why, Mr. Drake, I don't find you asinine, I understand your position. It's just work for you.
John Galt? Yes, high school was fun wasn't it?
Now, let's get back to basics, your question: "Should you have to pay a toll when you leave your driveway?"
Why yes, we should. There are multiple ways we could accomplish this just like when we pay for local schools. Not that I think the government should be into education. But that' another subject altogether.
Another question by you: "What right do you have driving on a road and expecting the rest of Georgia taxpayers to pay for it? How greedy are you?"
Aren't you arguing against yourself on this one Mr. Drake? That's where we started this dialog. Indeed, what right does anyone have to take from those that don't use a service and expect them to pay for it? So....! I guess we agree!! And you know what? If we get people paying for those things they use, they'll use a lot less of it. Less concrete, will you get to keep your job?
That's what I like about justifying the theft other people's money, take the far fetched exceptions and use them as the rule to justify it. So, someone come rambling down my street without a reason, and I have to pay for it, right Mr. Drake. Well I tell you what, I will take that risk, and cost, in exchange for freedom from crony capitalism, lobbyists, and government corruption.
How about you Mr. Drake?
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 8:52am
#37
efdrakejr- GA400
Wasn't the toll to use GA400 supposed to go away after the road was paid for? But what happened? Once you give politicians power/money they forget what the promises were. That is why I can't vote for a SPLOST at this time.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 4:09pm
#38
It's The Law
I agree that promises from politicians aren't worth much but this time it is the law. We will only be taxed for 10 years or until the project money is raised, WHICHEVER COMES FIRST. The legislature did that because they know we don't trust them.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 10:02pm
#39
Laws and Politicians
With all due respect Mr Drake, laws are made by politicians. And laws are later changed by those same politicians. By this definition a law is nothing more than another promise by, you guessed it, politicians.
Fri, 05/04/2012 - 5:48pm
#40
Only be taxed for 10 years...
I sure hope someone told the good folk over in Clayton County that fact. Given the track record of C-Tran, in ten years time they will spent through that $100,000,000 from T-SPLOST and then this new bus service will again go away. Perhaps T-SPLOST II will give them a lifeline.
The Cherokee County Republicans, Canton Tea Party, and Woodstock Tea Party are sponsoring a "T-SPLOST Panel Discussion (Debate?)" on Tuesday May 22, at 6:00 pm. It will be in the Cherokee County Conference Center, 1130 Bluffs Parkway, Canton, Ga. (Lower Level).
The panel will include Bob Ross with the Fayette County Issues Tea Party, Fayette County Commissioner Steve Brown, Cherokee BOC Chairman L.B. (Buzz) Ahrens, Jr., and Mike Alexander from the Atlanta Regional Commission.
The public will have the opportunity to sign up the night of the event to ask questions of the panel.
PLEASE pass along this information to family and friends in North Fulton County, Cobb, and Cherokee Counties.