PTC Mayor Haddix gets prayer request from atheist activist
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 12:47pm
Submitted by John Munford
Submitted by John Munford
A Peachtree City atheist has sent in a prayer request to the City Council.
Al Stefanelli, the Georgia state director of American Atheists, Inc. wants Mayor Don Haddix to amend the way prayers
are conducted at the beginning of the meeting in an effort to be more inclusive of other religions.
Stefanelli is asking the city to abandon Haddix’s customary pre-meeting prayer in favor of a prayer led by a rotation of “representatives of the different religions in Peachtree City, as well as representatives of the non-believing community.”
“Such a rotation would give the representatives of various religions the opportunity to have their deity(ies) included in the guidance of our city leaders,” Stefanelli wrote in a letter written to Haddix and the other four council members.
For non-believers, it would offer a chance to “offer their support by verbalizing the desire for city leaders to utilize their experience, wisdom and principles of reason to guide their decisions,” Stefanelli added.
In the letter, Stefanelli said while Peachtree City is “predominantly Christian,” there are other faiths represented in the population “such as Islam, Buddhism and Neo-Paganism. As well, there is a significant portion of the population that identify as having no religion, be it Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, Secularism, etc.”
Stefanelli’s letter contends that the use of the phrases “Heavenly Father” and “In His wonderful name” are not reflective of the beliefs of other religions, specifically those who have a single mother-type deity or those who have multiple deities.
Stefanelli also explains that “a significant amount of residents ... strongly feel that government prayer is unnecessary, inappropriate and divisive.”
“These citizens have expressed to me that calling upon council members and citizens in attendance to pray (even silently) is coercive, embarrassing and beyond the scope of secular city government. They reason that council members are free to pray privately, or to worship on their own time in their own way, and not on taxpayers’ time.”
Haddix told The Citizen Tuesday that the city attorney has already looked into the request, but he does not plan to change what he says in the opening prayer for each council meeting, nor does he plan to start the suggested rotation of community leaders.
The prayer, Haddix said, is within federal law because it establishes no religion and does not promote any particular denomination. Furthermore, Haddix noted that he does not use the name of any deity, so he feels the prayer is on solid legal ground.
“I see no reason to change it, because when change has been tried in other areas to do what he’s requesting ... it always becomes confusing,” Haddix said. “So I will just keep it this way because I’m legal.”
Haddix said he does not intend to change the prayer to a “moment of silence.” He added that silence, technically, is considered the atheist’s prayer.
Haddix noted that the prayer is not an official city policy, but rather is something he chooses to do at the beginning of the meeting.
In addition to promoting religious freedom, Stefanelli said a rotation of religious leaders would also help increase community involvement and “allow elected officials to get a better hand on the pulse of the community.”
“These citizens are compelled to come before you on civic, secular matters such as variances, sewers, building permits, restaurant licenses, sidewalk repair, etc. and they feel that they should not be subjected to a religious show or test or be expected to demonstrate religious obeisance at a city function and do not believe that divine guidance is needed over such earthly matters anyway,” Stefanelli wrote.
If the city declines to adopt the rotation method, Stefanelli said his preference would be for the city to eliminate the prayer entirely.
Fri, 08/26/2011 - 9:11am
#2
don't forget
I thought these people already had thier prayers mentioned in time past; during a meeting someone had said, "go to H-E-double hockey sticks". This is a religious statement/prayer that should be considered as well.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 11:51pm
#3
Ignorance
I wonder if you fundies realize how ignorant you sound. What you all fail to realize is that times change. The Atheist movement is growing, and coming to a fair CITY near you. You'd be shocked and awed by how many of "us" there are, from all walks of life...your kid's teachers, your neighbors, your auto mechanic, your civic leaders, your hairdresser, your (gasp) Doctor. I'll bet that you encounter one of us daily but you'd never know it. We don't feel the need to proselytize or convert the way you do, we're too busy getting our children raised, going to sporting events, volunteering in our communities, nursing our elderly parents and sometimes going to church with our believing loved ones. In other words, living a normal life. We are different from you, but we are also the same in that we want our rights and freedoms protected, too. We pay the same taxes (or probably more...you'd be amazed at some of the swanky neighborhoods we have invaded!)so we expect the same benefits. One of you (snapfinger) even said if we didn't like the pre-meeting prayers that we shouldn't attend the meeting, or better yet, leave town. News to you, I've been here 17 years and I'm not going anywhere. Many people didn't 'believe' in women voting or blacks eating at their lunch counters...but it happened, eventually. I bet some of you still yearn for those days, but society is becoming more enlightened daily, and the need for religion is waning with each new scientific discovery (and priest pedophile scandal). Mankind will continue to evolve and it's childish need for a heavenly father will give way to a race of rational, freethinking, humanistic and loving people...or at least that is my prayer ;) (It's a joke, for those of you with your head too far up your butt)
Fri, 08/26/2011 - 12:59am
#4
Comments on Prayer at Council Meetings
There have been some pretty good intelligent and progressive thoughts written on this subject. There have been some pretty nasty, bad taste, intolerant, and racists statements as well. To those who seem keen on talking tough and being basically intolerant and racist, you are not much different than those who used to run rampant around the South, burning torches, and communicating through fear, all while hiding under a white sheet. This time you can do the same, but hide behind a cryptic false name on the internet. Isn't it time for you to grow up? Shame on you.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 11:20pm
#5
Seperation of church and state?
Isn't that still in our constitution? Wasn't that one of the main reasons this country was founded in the first place? There shouldn't be ANY prayers of any sort during council meetings. Much less a prayer from each religion. If you want to pray. Go to church. Don't do it while you're on the tax-payers dime.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 6:09pm
#6
Who Cares?
No faith is right, there is no god, and, after a particularly unpleasant decomposition phase, we're all going to rot away to nothing.
It's not like we don't have more pressing issues to deal with.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 1:15pm
#7
How about...
...if the mayor says 'No. I was elected into this position and if the citizens don't like what I do or the way I do it, they can vote me out. Now go away.' And that's all I got to say about that.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 12:34pm
#8
How about a simple solution?
Before the meeting, observe a moment of silence. Of course the carbonunit realizes that silence on this subject appears to be the least popular solution.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 1:17pm
#9
Moment of Silence
In regards to some public meetings, longer than a "moment" would be even better.
The "moment of silence" is too much common sense and really angers both the hardcore fundie recruiters and the militant anti-religious zealots to where the vast majority that is in the middle between both these groups gets drowned-out.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 1:08pm
#10
Carbo & Simple Solution
Hey Carbo, once you solve this little problem, how about spending a little time on World Peace---oughta be a snap!
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 11:49am
#11
An atheist's point of view
Let me try to answer some of the questions regarding atheism. First let me say that I am an atheist, but not necessarily the militant kind that insists on crosses being taken down from memorials and things like that. I understand the argument against these things but I personally feel that government displays of religion, while inappropriate, are usually harmless and just not worth the effort to fight against. And by doing so you usually just end up angering people. That being said, let me try to explain why we atheists feel the way we do. It's actually pretty simple. We believe that governments should be secular in how they are run. Not that everyone in government should be an atheist or should have no religious beliefs, but that as a government official those beliefs should be a private matter. Like I said before, we feel that it's inappropriate for a government official to endorse or attempt to further a specific religious belief, even if that belief is shared by a majority of people. Remember, our country is not a democracy and the majority does not rule. We are a democratic republic that is governed by laws which are meant to protect people from the whims of the "majority". So the question is then, is it unconstitutional for a prayer to be said at a small town city council meeting? I don't know. But for me that's not the point. For me, like I said, it's inappropriate. And to understand why I feel that way you need only to look into history or look at countries that are governed by their religion. Inevitably, when religion runs government horrible things happen. That's why the establishment clause was put into the Constitution. Is the PTC city council saying a prayer at the beginning of their meetings the same at the Taliban? Of course not. But for us we see that as the beginning of religion attempting to creep its way into government positions. I know that people who support prayer in government don't see it that way. I think that to them, they're merely practicing their beliefs and that in their eyes doing so in a government capacity adds some element of morality to the government proceedings. But to someone on the outside of religion who is wary of a religion controlled government these prayers seem more like the first steps down a dangerous path. So our arguments against prayer in government have nothing to do with limiting someone's right to practice their own religion. Instead the arguments are meant to try to prevent a slow crawl into a theocracy.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 6:51pm
#12
Non Christian
What about the non Christen citizens? Why should we have to bow our heads and listen to the Mayor pray to “our heavenly father”? I think that it is wrong. If a prayer is needed, it should be absolutely non- denominational!
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 3:13pm
#13
Your post
I want to say that although you and I would probably not agree on many things philosophically, the means with which you presented your case is refreshing and very respectable. That you for a respectful point of view.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 1:36pm
#14
Slippery slope argument
I don't buy your slippery slope argument.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Generalize that to all jurisdictions.
We're not going to slide down a slippery slope into changing the First Amendment. It protects the exercise of tradition as practiced by the mayor. When the city moves to pass an ordinance to govern a prayer, then act and you'll have all of our support.
Steve
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 11:56am
#15
very well said, BoYo...
...thank you.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 10:33am
#16
I'm in favor of letting the Mayor choose to have prayer or not
in any he wants to pray or not.
If we elect an Atheist, so be it. Pray or not. Same with a Muslim.
If I was the Mayor, I would not open with a prayer. We have plenty of Churches for that.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 8:47am
#17
Stefanelli's True Agenda?
After reading this article and all the posted comments, I am questioning Mr. Stefanelli's true agenda.
The motives and feelings behind some of the comments are crystal clear. However, others seem to have a hidden agenda.
I think we all would agree that the PTC council has been on shaky ground for a while.
I question why Mr. Stefanelli chose to send his letter only to the PTC council. Why didn't he send his letter to all of the Fayette city councils. He could have made a much larger impact had he sent it to Brooks, Fayetteville, Tyrone and even the Fayette commissioners. Why didn't Mr. Stefanelli send his letter to the White House?
He only sent his letter to the PTC council. Maybe that is because he lives in PTC. Although, if he really wanted to make a change.......
Maybe he sent his letter to PTC because he saw an opportunity to further divide and compromise the already unstable atmosphere within the PTC council.
Also, there are some PTC council seats up for re-election. Mr. Stefanelli's letter could be another means of driving a wedge into that process.
Could Mr. Stefanelli's real agenda be just to cause trouble?
As RWM and others have said here, it is freedom OF religion. Mr. Stefanelli is free to worship or not how ever he sees fit. No one has denied Mr. Stefanelli that right. If he is offended by other people exercising their right to freedom of religion, no one is forcing him to participate.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 11:48pm
#18
Opening council meetings with a prayer
The issue concerns starting city council meetings with a prayer. It is not a a referendum on religious preferences or which way of life is superior to others. The United States of America is for all peoples. All people are different, and it should be expected and tolerated by all. Reading all of the comments made on this forum is amusing, and observers can only wish you happiness as you struggle through the Middle Ages. The community would best be served if the "I am the boss mayor" mentality would just eliminate the formality of any prayer. There are churches conveniently located near city hall if any of you experience any calling or need to respond to a religious tug. You could run over for a 15 second prayer at any one of them, and be back and probably not miss a thing.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 8:44am
#19
jmatute-why don't you just
find something to gripe about where you live now? You going to spend the rest of your life badmouthing where you used to live? Get a life.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 12:11pm
#20
Reply to Moe....
On the contrary. I am not "badmouthing". Simply stated, you could be a great place to live if you just accepted more tolerance in ideas, and respectful of others. Badmouthing I can be if pointing out the bugs and humidity in the summer is the subject.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 12:54pm
#21
jpatute
You left PTC with a number of negative things to say about our fair city. You left to live in a "sanctuary" state at a time when Georgia is cracking down on illegals and THAT raises a few questions. Are you an illegal alien? Are you either directly or indirectly on the public dole?
You speak of tolerance - words that usually set off warning bells for me.
Note to all wetbacks (legal term); I am NOT tolerant of your parasitic existence in my country. Go home. A failed POTUS scrambling for votes does not justify your whining cries for tolerance OR acceptance. I have No respect for ILLEGAL - get used to it.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 1:11pm
#22
MajorMike
Couldn't agree more.
I'm all for serious immigration reform, especially streamlining and simplifying the process for those who seek citizenship and bring with them skills and abilities the US needs, but for those leeches already here illegally who simply expect to be granted citizenship with no strings attached whatsoever, you called it 100% right, "parasites."
The extreme pandering by Obama to lighten up deportations right after several recent meetings with pro-immigration/pro-amnesty Hispanic groups is pathetic, short-sighted, and also shows yet again the only thing on this planet that Obama has cared about since the moment Obamacare passed is getting reelected.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 2:41pm
#23
Ditto.
How about giving them all 8-years of prison like the two US hikers (idiots that they may be) who crossed into Iran? Or, maybe build a fence like the one in the movie '300'? That might give them pause to invade our nation...
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 12:14am
#24
jmatute
Or if the majority are not bothered by a prayer, you could wait outside for the 15 seconds and probably not miss a thing.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 12:14pm
#25
reply to just checking,
It is not a matter of majority or minority. It is matter of protections under the Constitution of the United States.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 12:24pm
#26
jmatute & prayers
So are you suggesting that those words uttered by the House & Senate Chaplains upon opening each session are unconstitutional?
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 2:22pm
#27
probably so since there is no
probably so since there is no official national religion. while i am a christian, i also don't want to have a theocracy and believe in the complete separation of church and state. if pastors tell people who to vote for, that church should pay taxes, etc.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 11:35pm
#28
I would like a serious reply
I would like a serious reply from all of the atheists out there. The constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. I do not see a problem with City Council meetings starting with a prayer to a higher power, whether male or female, I think we can all agree that a god is a higher power. It is up to the person listening to the prayer to apply it to whomever they attribute the term to. If you assume it is a Christian god, then that is your assumption. Even the name God, is not absolute. He or She has lots of names. If you believe, trust me, your god will hear the prayer. If you don't believe in any sort of higher power, then it's no skin off your teeth if someone is prayed to, because, in your estimation, they don't exist in the first place and it shouldn't matter if some of your fellow citizens want to pray to someone. That in a nutshell is my question to all of you atheists. Why does it bother you if a prayer is said if you don't believe it is going anywhere? Is it that it takes up a few minutes of your time? Is it you think people will be influenced by it? If there is no god, then there's no harm is there? If you're all about humanity and morality, and you feel you don't need a god to help you with that, than good on ya. But if there are those who feel their humanity and morality come from a higher authority, then where's the crime in letting them pray for guidance? Someone on this blog said ONLY 76% of the people believed in God, well that's still a majority in my book. If there is no god, than there's no harm, no foul. If the City Council is praying to an all inclusive god, what is the harm? We don't need a revolving door of people saying the same thing in a different way. And if you don't believe in any kind of god, why are you so bothered by a harmless prayer? It's not going anywhere then, is it?
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 10:45am
#29
Reply
Apparently, Mr Stefanelli does not see a problem with prayer either. As identified in the article,"Stefanelli is asking the city to abandon Haddix’s customary pre-meeting prayer in favor of a prayer led by a rotation of “representatives of the different religions in Peachtree City, as well as representatives of the non-believing community.” At issue is not the prayer, but the process needing to be inclusive. As a note,12.6% of the US population identifies themselves as black, so a non-Christian minority of 24% is a significant minority.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 7:41am
#30
Bingo, justchecking. It is freedom OF religion
Very important point. Freedom OF religion allows anyone to pursue whatever religion they adhere to. Only limitation is that government can't establish a national religion and we have never even gotten close to that one despite the hysterical whining from people like this Steffi person.
Atheists don't believe in God nor do they respect anyone's religion or their right to pursue their religious beliefs - that is in direct conflict with constitutionally-guaranteed freedom of religion and therefore I declare atheism unconstitutional. So shut up and go away. You don't have a say in this - taxpayer or not.
That's right, justchecking - if God doesn't exist as atheists believe, how are they harmed by someone praying to Him for guidance? Like I said a silly little fringe group (or individual in Seffi's case) just trying to get attention - like a crying baby.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 8:57am
#31
RWM: Stick to Brown/Haddix topics
Because you have no idea what you are talking about on this one. First it was your forgetting that the Pledge of Allegiance didn't contain "under God" for its first 60 years of existence, and now this gem:
Atheists don't believe in God nor do they respect anyone's religion or their right to pursue their religious beliefs - that is in direct conflict with constitutionally-guaranteed freedom of religion and therefore I declare atheism unconstitutional. So shut up and go away. You don't have a say in this - taxpayer or not.
Saying atheists "don't respect anyone's religion or right to pursue it" is really dumb. It's the exact same kind of mentality an ignorant atheist could say about Christians "Christians don't respect the rights of atheists to not participate in any religion and their right to not practice any religion."
I don't see atheists picketing the churches in PTC or really giving a damn about what any religion does until it tries to get government sponsorship and advocacy from the government.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 9:43am
#32
Dumb? Ok, I'll dumb it down further for you
I have a constitutional right to my religious freedom.
There are only 3 things that can take that away.
1. Government establishing their own religion - which hasn't happened.
2. People recruiting me to their religion because they believe it is the only one - Muslim, Jehova Witness, etc.
3. People coming in years after a perfectly acceptable, legal and constitutional practice of prayer before meeting has been established and telling us they don't like it because they don't believe.
And targeting just this one city when there are hundreds or thousands across the country that have a generic prayer before a meeting is petty and inappropriate. I think this Seffi person is a small-minded agitator who is either going to run for office or is poking at Haddix with a sharp stick in hopes of getting a Norsouth-type outburst to set up a larger issue of some type. There, I brought Haddix into it. Happy?
But seriously, why just a letter to Haddix instead of the entire council and why just PTC?
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 10:59am
#33
Morgan...(Jesus wanted prayer to be private..
..it's even in your Bible.)
I know it is difficult for you to look outside of PTC (aka "the bubble") and see what is happening in other parts of the country, but please google "prayer city council meetings" and you will see that this issue is being confronted in many other cities across the nation and will most likely end up in the federal court system, if it has not already.
No one wants to take away your religion or your belief in god and Jesus, however, prayers to any deity in a city council meeting are inappropriate, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many others. If the council members feel that they need to pray, then there needs to be a rotation of prayer by representatives of other faiths, and non-faith (atheist, humanist). Personally, I really wish that our city council would actually OPEN THEIR EYES and get to work, rather than close their eyes and mumble some ancient-sounding mumbo jumbo prayer to an invisible thingy that most likely, if "it" exists, could give a crap about the petty stuff we humans have to deal with (taxes, road repair, zoning changes), especially when there are so many more important issues that our shared world faces everyday (famine, war).
Morgan, please continue to practice your form of religion and praying to deities and invisible thingies. The atheists and non-believers of the world, and our community, don't really care. Just do it in private and not at a city council meeting.
And the letter Mr. Stefanelli sent out, went to ALL members of the city council, not JUST Haddix. There is no secret agenda, like some on here have alluded to, just a desire for fairness and equality as it relates to being represented in our community.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 11:09am
#34
Sounds like the demon has entered you and posses your soul
Ask your demon why now all of a sudden?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 7:48pm
#37
As For Me and My House......
It is an honor to be attacked for my Christian Beliefs. The decision to follow Christ isn't something to make lightly--it means "taking up our cross" and committing to follow Jesus wherever he leads. "...but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD". Joshua 24:15
Praise God! I'll bring the "Hallelujah Van" to the commissioners meeting tomorrow.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 9:13pm
#38
DBarlow
AN excellent verse to live by. Also, if you feel led, check out John Waller's song and video of the same verse. It can be found on youtube
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 5:54pm
#39
this is America; only christians need apply
Sorry, guys and dolls, there are people who don't subscribe to your fairy tale, and we pay taxes, too. If you would like to worship and pray to something, do it on your own time (i've noticed that christians rarely respond to suggestions to pray in private, as is admonished by their saviour in the good book). I mean, to whom are they showing off?
And, as to why do atheists CARE...we care deeply and draw our morality from what is good and expedient for humankind, not in fear of retribution from a "superior" being. AND, as to leaving the country, as morgan suggests...sorry, dude, it's not a christian country in any sense of the word. christians are the most poorly behaved members of society i've ever encountered. Read carefully: we are a melting pot; other people get to live here, too, as full citizens, not as second-class citizens according to the good will of the "christian majority."
Don't expect Cal to grant Al a user account; he's denied him several times already. Evidently, his god can't stand up to a good, rational argument.
Finally, what's the harm in spreading the glory, if Haddix MUST pray in public? Who is it going to harm? Are you folks so weak in your faith that you fear you'll convert to another religion, or worse yet, lose your faith altogether? Or is your god so impotent that he cannot stand a little healthy competition?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 8:42pm
#40
Nasty one, aren't you
You have just summarized what it is about atheists that people don't like and the beauty that is our constitution. See, you have freedom of religion (to worship or not to worship as you please), but you do not have the freedom from religion (the right to run it from sight so you never have to encounter it).
You have also envoked the "melting pot" imagery. Intersting choice since so many chips that hop into the pot these days have no intention whatsoever of melting. When people came to America to pursue a better life, they melted (embraced American ideals and traditions) and became active participants in those customs and traditions. Too many people today expect traditional Americans to give up the customs and traditions that we love and enjoy out of fear that it might "offend" someone. Well, our constitution doesn't guarantee the right to remain "unoffended". Whereas I understand your concern about religious activities taking place on the taxpayers dime, I can only deem your tastless rant against Christians as evidence of one more SELFISH personality.
Bless your little ol' heart...
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 10:56pm
#41
nasty atheist??
Brer Rabbit, I don't see where alledgedteacher was being nasty, only honest. There are strict guidelines that need to be followed when performing invocations at public, government meetings and Haddix violated the guidelines... sorry, but that's just the facts. Y'all need to realize that there are atheists in this community... and Jews, Hindus, Wiccans, Humanists, Muslims, Buddhists and probably some Scientologists too.
Besides, you and your fellow Christians need to read, and understand your Bibles more, and what Jesus actually said, especially regarding public prayer, which he was opposed to:
Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 2:57pm
#42
Go back and read my post again.
"Are you folks so weak in your faith that you fear you'll convert to another religion, or worse yet, lose your faith altogether? Or is your god so impotent that he cannot stand a little healthy competition?"
Tell me, do you not consider this at a minium, incendiary?
If you re-read my post, you will see that I said, "Whereas I understand your concern about religious activities taking place on the taxpayers dime, I can only deem your tastless rant against Christians as evidence of one more SELFISH personality".
If you want to be taken seriously, have a civil discussion. I would submit to you the post by BoYo on 8/25. This is a FAR cry from the typical athiest rant about stopping the display of everything religious, and not one time did this individual say anyting negative about those that believe differently from him or her.
I agree that elected government is not the place to endorse any form of religion. Like the legal system, it should be blind and unbiased toward all citizens, regardless of their belief systems. What I do take exception to is the onslaught of attacks on those that continue to follow traditional views like Christianity. Would you honestly say that you believe similar comments directed toward Muslims would be overlooked as "honest"? Ask David Letterman how that's worked out for him.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 4:15pm
#43
BrerRabbit... religion is man made anyway.
"Are you folks so weak in your faith that you fear you'll convert to another religion, or worse yet, lose your faith altogether? Or is your god so impotent that he cannot stand a little healthy competition?"
Tell me, do you not consider this at a minium, incendiary?
No, I don't find it incendiary. I find it very thought provoking and teacher raises some excellent points.
Why can't we have rotating prayers that include other religions and an invocation of a secular nature? Like teacher asked, do you fear other religions?
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 5:42pm
#44
Rotating Prayers?
Would Town Hall have to have one of those tall towers with microphones for the Muslims?
I just don't know where a Buddha would fit.
Prayer wheels would look odd except to the spinners!
Holy Rollers would scare everyone withe snakes and hot stoves!
Indian drum dances around a fire would take too long.
The Catholics might get everyone drunk.
Episcopalians would tell everyone who is going to heaven, or not.
The Baptists would preach for 1 1/2 hours.
The Churches of Christ would make all the women leave.
The Mormons would---that's just it I'm not sure!
The Compound Mormons would bring too many wives.
The VooDoo Priestess would bring that chicken!
All Orthodoxes would wear hats inside.
The Rabbi would carry in that huge Torah.
The Native Indians of Australia would want to play those honkers.
My Grandfather used to take me into a dark basement and knealed.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 7:10pm
#45
hahahahahahaha
Roundabout, thanks for the laugh. Your post is the most reasonable and creative one I've seen on here yet.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 5:30pm
#46
Main Stream / Brer Rabbit
Not to get involved in a Jesus vs "other" fight but .... I believe it was Voltaire that said "If there were not a God, it would be necessary for man to create one". Religion (organized), no matter what you believe, is/was merely a tool for the control of the masses.
I have always found that, to the sincere people that you meet in life, religion is a highly personal experience. It is NOT something a sincere or honest person wears on his/her shirt sleeve either in public or in these blogs.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 5:21pm
#47
Barlow and the Atheist
Barlow will bring his Jesus van so the two of you can carpool.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 5:00pm
#48
Prayer request from Atheist
I am offended that someone made this suggestion, and will be even more offended if our Mayor or City Council agrees to this - unless the majority of the PTC residents agree to it. If anybody doesn't like the present prayers, then they should either not come to the meetings or move to another town. This is America..... like ir or leave it.
Please do not make any change in your prayers, unless you want to pray for this individual, and anyone else that may agree with him/her.
Thank you.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 4:22pm
#49
aka former Southern Baptist pastor
till about 10 years ago?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 4:11pm
#50
thank you Mr. Stefanelli...
...for bringing this issue to the forefront. It is long overdue. There are many who support you in your efforts here in Fayette County.
Hey, Cal, why not give Al Stefanelli a user account so he can weigh in here? We would like to hear his commentary.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 4:53pm
#51
MainScream, Stefanelli & User Acct
Any reason he can't just register like the rest of we common folk?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 5:18pm
#52
Stefanelli user acct denied...
... by the Citizen. At least that is what I have heard. Cal, what's going on with this?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 5:51pm
#53
MainScream, Rumor & Citizen Acct
Why would you not share your source of "I heard" with us?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 4:53pm
#54
MainScream, Stefanelli & User Acct
Any reason he can't just register like the rest of we common folk?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 2:26pm
#55
Stefanelli, You Are Outnumbered
Oh, I agree with RWM.
Stefanelli, you picked the wrong battle, here.
We just need to sick Barlow on this one.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 2:41pm
#56
Barlow? Yeah, one of those "Constitutional Social Conservatives"
The people who think the Founding Fathers were "Christians" and quote Jefferson to try and back up this ridiculous and totally ignorant idea? The same Jefferson who quite clearly stated this country was not in any way founded on the principles of the Christian religion? The guy who thought the whole concept of Jesus Christ was a huge scam and mocked anyone who considered Him to be the son of God? The guy who basically created separation of church and state? THAT group of fundies like Barlow and Bachmann and Huckabee? Yeah, they've been dragging the Republican Party down for years into a sinkhole to where it will take some luck to even beat a wounded and very vulnerable Obama.
I'm starting to like Stefanelli because he can at least give all the hardcore fundies some headaches for a while.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 1:40pm
#57
Steffi dude, get real
You ever heard of "One nation, under God" Huh? Yea it was actually written that way even though Prezbo, NBC and others try to edit it out. Last thing we need is advice from an aetheist. Talk about a useless and non-productive minority group. You really take the cake. Last thing Fayette County needs is the likes of you with a seat at the table. Next we won't be able to celebrate Christmas because it is the birth of Christ, then we won't be able to decorate our Holiday tree in red and green because that is code for Christmas and then we won't be allowed to pray in school and then we won't be able to celebrate Easter because it will offend somebody. Enough of you people - just go away and stay away.
And why are we even listening to a lecture on proper prayer techniques from an aetheist group - sort of a spiritual NAACP. Have we lost our minds?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 3:21pm
#58
Offensive
Usually Mr Morgan I commend your rational and respectful debate on these blogs. I am however offended by your description of atheist as a "useless and non-productive minority group". You clearly demonstrate the stereotypical Christian approach of my way or your wrong. This is a secular society and there is a clear mandate for separation of church and state. While there have been cases upholding a prayer prior to civic events, there have been a number that have found in favor of no prayer. The request is not to remove the religious element, but rather to respect other religions and points of view. Just as a point of reference, 15% of the US population claims "no religion" and only 76% of the country identifies themselves as Christian. Yes, that is a minority, but certainly not a useless and non-productive group as identified.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 3:09pm
#59
I liked Stefanelli's
I liked Stefanelli's statement:
For non-believers, it would offer a chance to “offer their support by verbalizing the desire for city leaders to utilize their experience, wisdom and principles of reason to guide their decisions,” Stefanelli added.
Is it really so bad for city leaders to utilize their "experience, wisdom and principles of reason?" That sounds like very good advice to me!
And Stefanelli has every right to speak up about his views! We live in America, not Iran! Don't forget it!
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 2:32pm
#60
RWM get real
Can you really argue in favor of public disenfranchisement? I'm pretty sure that if you were living as a Christian minority, you'd have something to say if a Jewish or Muslim majority were using your tax money to represent a private belief system in a public manner. No one is arguing against private exercise of your beliefs. The argument is against using public institutions to do so.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 1:55pm
#61
One Nation Under God.....not originally in the Pledge
You ever heard of "One nation, under God" Huh? Yea it was actually written that way even though Prezbo, NBC and others try to edit it out.
It wasn't written that way originally...the "under God" was added in 1954. For about 60 years it somehow was a good enough pledge without that addition, but whatever. I don't really care.
Cobb County got sued over this issue and won in court as the court ruled their opening prayer was generic enough to where it didn't favor any one religion.
As far as atheists having "useless advice," how do you explain why so many people in FC and elsewhere in the country love "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead" when they were written by the very militant atheist Ayn Rand?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 1:45pm
#62
Dead guy, you walked right into that one
The words "under God" were added in 1954.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 1:53pm
#63
It doesn't matter when they were written, only that they were
and we don't need some priggish little nancyboy from the spiritual NAACP pretending that those words have been officially "unwritten" either.
I did notice this aethiest clown has a PTC address. Maybe this is his publicity-seeking letter prior to running for city council. Won't that be fun. Maybe we could pray for him if he runs against Doug.
Speaking of which, where are all the candidates? Only one has announced. You'd expect more with qualifying coming up next week.
Thu, 08/25/2011 - 12:53pm
#64
Face it dead guy you're dead wrong
You were and are dead wrong when you said, "You ever heard of "One nation, under God" Huh? Yea it was actually written that way".
BTW On March 11, 2010, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit upheld the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance in the case of Newdow v. Rio Linda Union School District. In a 2–1 decision, the appellate court ruled that the words were of a "ceremonial and patriotic nature" and did not constitute an establishment of religion.
Since the words are of a "ceremonial and patriotic nature" and do not constitute an establishment of religion your argument is moot.
It would not surprise me at some point the Supreme Court will have to grow a pair and actually take a case on this issue. Up to now they've dodged it.
Don't you remember when the courts, federal and state buildings had to remove the 10 commandants? When that issue first started up everybody thought it was ridiculous. Not anymore.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 8:57pm
#65
Happy Holidays??
I was in line at Books-A-Million last year behind two women. A jolly blonde was checking out and a middle-eastern woman was between us in line. The blonde and the cashier were having a conversation about the book she had purchased and as the she handed the customer her receipt she said "Happy Holidays", to which the jolly blonde said "you mean Merry Christmas!". The cashier smiled in a way that showed she agreed but could not "say it". The woman between us put her book down and in an annoyed tone said "you know, not everyone here celebrates Christmas!", to which I leaned over and said "Not eveyone who lives here has to stay!" She promptly paid for her book and left the store.
People seem to forget one important freedom in America... the freedom to leave. I am not willing to surrender my heritage for the feelings of anyone, nor should I be asked to.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 1:37pm
#66
Hmmm....
Since Athiests don't believe in God... and I don't belive in Athiests... I think we should just call it even!
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 3:20pm
#67
Hmm...
>> Since Athiests don't believe in God... and I don't belive in Athiests... I think we should just call it even!
I suppose that would be logical, if you are a god. Are you a god, or do you just think you are?
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 8:49pm
#68
Nope
Just tired of the whining. You part of the problem???
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 1:29pm
#69
Atheist interest
It's probably because atheists (along with any and all represented beliefs) are taxpayers too and government, which is sustained with their tax money just like anyone else's, should reflect a lack of bias.
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 2:16pm
#70
I assume you're replying to me..
I just thought it was IRONIC...but I guess you missed that part. Or my post wasn't clear enough.
Frankly, I don't think Haddix should be leading anyone in anything. :)
Wed, 08/24/2011 - 1:22pm
#71
Why would an atheist care?
Seriously...
Way to kick a guy (ie the city) when they're down! The city is pinching pennies, trying to make every dollar count, and one of its supposed own citizens is thinking of suing the city. A quote from another local newspaper: Stefanelli says the next step is legal action. "Given all the problems in Peachtree City, the Mayor could have chosen the simple option and given this idea a try. Now the city will likely have to pay to defend a lawsuit on the matter." Great idea Stefanelli! Let's spend a bunch of money we don't have to argue whether you have a right to a multi-cultural, multi-god, anti-god, no-god, whatever god city council meeting! I am usually extremely tolerant, but enough is enough. I know you have a beef. But can't you wait until we're all a little more flush before airing it?? I'm not defending the mayor. He's done little to be defended. But your choosing this particular time to bring up your grievance is beyond the pale. Couldn't we just get our financial house in order, to the benefit of all citizens - whether God fearing or God naysayer - before stepping into this fray?? I'm just saying....