Teacher education to blame for failing schools

Walter Williams's picture

American education is in a sorry state of affairs, and there’s enough blame for all participants to have their fair share.

They include students who are hostile and alien to the education process, uninterested parents, teachers and administrators who either are incompetent or have been beaten down by the system, and politicians who’ve become handmaidens for teachers unions.

There’s another education issue that’s neither flattering nor comfortable to confront and talk about. That’s the low academic preparation of many teachers. That’s an issue that must be confronted and dealt with if we’re to improve the quality of education. Let’s look at it.

Schools of education, whether graduate or undergraduate, tend to represent the academic slums of most college campuses. They tend to be home to students who have the lowest academic achievement test scores when they enter college, such as SAT scores.

They have the lowest scores when they graduate and choose to take postgraduate admissions tests — such as the GRE, the MCAT and the LSAT.

The California Basic Educational Skills Test, or CBEST, is mandatory for teacher certification in California. It’s a joke.

Here’s a multiple-choice question on its practice math test: “Rob uses 1 box of cat food every 5 days to feed his cats. Approximately how many boxes of cat food does he use per month? A. 2 boxes, B. 4 boxes, C. 5 boxes, D. 6 boxes, E. 7 boxes.”

Here’s another: “Which of the following is the most appropriate unit for expressing the weight of a pencil? A. pounds, B. ounces, C. quarts, D. pints, E. tons.”

I’d venture to predict that the average reader’s sixth-grader could answer each question. Here’s a question that is a bit more challenging; call your eighth-grader: “Solve for y: y - 2 + 3y = 10, A. 2, B. 3, C. 4, D. 5, E. 6.”

Some years ago, the Association of Mexican American Educators, the California Association for Asian-Pacific Bilingual Education and the Oakland Alliance of Black Educators brought suit against the state of California and the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing, charging that the CBEST was racially discriminatory.

Plaintiff “evidence” was the fact that the first-time passing rate for whites was 80 percent, about 50 percent for Mexican-Americans, Filipinos and Southeast Asians, and 46 percent for blacks. In 2000, in a stroke of rare common sense, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit found CBEST not to be racially discriminatory.

Poor teacher preparation is not a problem restricted to California. In Massachusetts, only 27 percent of new teachers could pass the math test needed to be certified as a teacher.

A 2011 investigation by Atlanta’s Channel 2 Action News found that more than 700 Georgia teachers repeatedly failed at least one portion of the certification test they are required to pass before receiving a teaching certificate.

Nearly 60 teachers failed the test more than 10 times, and one teacher failed the test 18 times. They also found that there were 297 teachers on the Atlanta school system’s payroll even though they had failed the state certification test five times or more.

Textbooks used in schools of education might explain some teacher ineptitude. A passage in Marilyn Burns’ text “About Teaching Mathematics” reads, “There is no place for requiring students to practice tedious calculations that are more efficiently and accurately done by using calculators.”

“New Designs for Teaching and Learning,” by Dennis Adams and Mary Hamm, says, “Content knowledge is not seen to be as important as possessing teaching skills and knowledge about the students being taught.”

Harvey Daniels and Marilyn Bizar’s text “Methods that Matter” reads, “Students can no longer be viewed as cognitive living rooms into which the furniture of knowledge is moved in and arranged by teachers, and teachers cannot invariably act as subject-matter experts.”

The authors explain, “The main use of standardized tests in America is to justify the distribution of certain goodies to certain people.”

With but a few exceptions, schools of education represent the academic slums of most any college. American education could benefit from slum removal, eliminating schools of education.

[Walter E. Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University.] COPYRIGHT 2013 CREATORS.COM

Mike Fairbanks
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Where is the evidence? Where is the maturity?

1. Calling teacher-prep colleges "the slums of most college campuses" is immature. Plus, it has no substance as a statement. How does one measure which part of the college campus is a "slum" using a measured rubric?

It's an inflammatory statement designed to get attention and, thus, increase circulation.

2. He opens his essay with, "American education is in a sorry state of affairs."

That's an incredibly broad generalization for a nation of fifty individual states with unique characteristics in a nation that only trails China and India in population (yet has an economy that is double China's and India's--combined, according to the International Monetary Fund and the United Nations).

According to the U.S. State Department, 90% of American children attend public schools. Yet, we still have the world's leading economy.

Mr. Williams also writes that "Schools of education, whether graduate or undergraduate, tend to represent the academic slums of most college campuses. They tend to be home to students who have the lowest academic achievement test scores when they enter college, such as SAT scores."

Unfortunately, Professor Williams doesn't use a single piece of evidence to back his claim. Does he assume his readers are easily swayed by arguments that aren't backed up?

I'm surprised a professor would choose to make statements he can't support with research. I wonder if he even tried to find evidence to back his claim.

I'm equally surprised that his piece was published. Why would an editor choose to publish something that lacks substance?

Finally, I wonder how many children he taught in public schools? He is an economics professor, not an expert in the field of education.

Just like Roy Barnes, George Bush, and Barack Obama, Mr. Williams seems to think that he knows more about teaching than the people in the field of education. I suppose that people think attending school makes them qualified to understand the profession on a level higher than the very people who spent years training for it. If that's the case, then my being on the highway each day makes me an expert in the field of infrastructure and transportation.

Without evidence a claim is just hot air.

----------

On a different note, since someone asked what a local educator thinks:

I teach fifth grade, and the kids I teach didn't enslave anyone, pollute the planet, start any wars or cause economic collapse. They haven't done anything wrong, so cut them some slack. All the people who think the future is bleak don't know these kids. The children I teach are curious, compassionate, and really do care about their future and the future of their nation. I could go on forever about how great my 93 students are, each one of them. In eighteen years of teaching this is the best group I've seen. They work hard and spend hours striving for excellence.

The future is in good hands with them, and my opinion is that they certainly couldn't do worse than previous generations before them. In fact, I have a lot more faith in them than my generation or the next one above me.

And for the record, the educators I work with in Fayette County are committed and hard-working. We want more than anything to see the children succeed (every single one). It pains us to see any child struggle, and few of us leave eight hours after arrival. The ones who do most likely have family obligations and spend hours at home working. I generally give up one day of my weekend to organize, grade, plan, and prepare for the week ahead. Monday morning I hit the ground running.

And then, in late May, the kids leave, and I go through withdrawal. For a week I see things, read facts, learn techniques, etc. that I can't wait to share with my kids. But then I remember that they're gone.

We are dedicated, all of us.

There is too much negativity on this forum and in our nation. The sad part is that it's the adults who are participating in the whining, complaining and overall negativity in general, and they aren't setting a very good example by the way they speak so disrespectfully about their leaders, celebrities, and even religious minorities.

The kids I teach aren't that way. They are better than that.

PTC Observer
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Mr. Fairbanks - The data

speaks loads about our public education system.

Read it an understand that Mr. Williams is dead on in his analysis.

http://

rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

These are facts, the conclusions are apparent, a failed system of public schools.

I am sure you are an excellent teacher and that you take pride in your work. Unfortunately, you are saddled with too much bureaucracy and political agenda to provide jobs to the unworthy.

Mike Fairbanks
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Public Schools
PTC Observer wrote:

speaks loads about our public education system.

Read it an understand that Mr. Williams is dead on in his analysis.

http://

rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/

These are facts, the conclusions are apparent, a failed system of public schools.

I am sure you are an excellent teacher and that you take pride in your work. Unfortunately, you are saddled with too much bureaucracy and political agenda to provide jobs to the unworthy.

Mr. Williams didn't provide analysis. He provided opinion, and he didn't list a single piece of evidence to back his claims.

Plus, how does he quantify "slum" in terms of a university's schools?

And I don't understand the last six words in your last sentence. Please clarify.

Finally, the statistics you linked to (which is more than what Mr. Williams did in his essay) have nothing to do with his claims.

Remember, the USA has a wider diversity and a much larger population than the other nations in the link you provided. Only India and China have more people. Therefore, blanket statements about the U.S. system of schools is illogical and lacks validity, especially since there really is no U.S. system of public education. Each state operates independently. It was only this year that schools began adopting the Common Core Curriculum.

There is no uniformed system of public education in the United States. Therefore, there is no such concept as "America's failing school system."

PTC Observer
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Mr. Fairbanks - On Mr. Williams

I am not attempting to validate Mr. Williams' assumptions or assertions.

The fact is the current education system funded by government doesn't work well, we spend too much money on positions that don't teach, throw money at problems that are never solved and generally blame the wrong people, the students, the teachers, and the parents.

Our federal government while only funding a small portion of the system, demands and gets greater and greater control. The political agenda is using the education system to push a jobs program to garner votes. We spend over $800 billion on education in this country most of it on jobs that have little to do with actually educating children. We don't need a government funded jobs program, we need to educate our children to be competitive with those that will compete against them globally.

You can talk diversity all you want Mr. Fairbanks but using this as an excuse for poor results rings hollow. You clearly have never traveled to India or China, diversity indeed! Who's being illogical?

There is in fact an American School System, it's the one we have. You can call it disjointed but it is no less a system than any other school system in any other country. I would propose to privatize the entire schooling of America. If the teaching profession were competitive then we would have better teachers, higher standards, better results and higher pay.

Cyclist
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Education does not begin....

nor end at the school door. It has to continue at home in an environment that nurtures learning.

This is coming from someone who is a product of the public education system and parents that cared.

Having a welfare society in which kids are having kids is not the way we should be going.

Davids mom
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Cyclist

The majority of persons who have experienced success came from the situation which comprised your environment. The welfare recipients are not the only group in our society who have 'kids having kids'. In my childhood, the community (TV, Media, etc.) provided role models which honored fidelity, marriage, family life etc. That is not what our children are exposed to today. Corrupt use of the welfare system is not the only problem that confronts those who want to expose their children to the best in society. We have corruption in the church, businesses, government, etc. History shows us that this is nothing new - but through the MEDIA, our children are exposed to this far more than those who were 'before' the baby boomers. It is the responsibility of the 'home' and the 'community' to showcase the behavior that they want their children to emulate. But 'good stuff' does not sell today. Sad. You and Jesse Jackson are on the same page - he was on the 'stop the kids from having kids' soapbox in the 60's. You're right - there is a lot of blame to go around for failing schools. Americans have tackled tough societal problems before - and made progress. I feel that if we ever work together again, as Americans, we can continue to progress.

Cyclist
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Davids mom: The "Good Stuff"...

does not sell today.

Amen!!!

BTW, are you secretly taking those "red" pills?

Davids mom
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Red pills?

???????

Larry.Sussberg
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PTCO & S.Lindsey - Data and Solutions

Actually, in 2011, 75% of Georgia's public schools met standards (AYP) while only 73% of Georgia's charter schools did.

Fayette is lucky to have a wonderful school system because we have actively engaged parents and a great team of teachers and administrators who are committed.

For some reason PTCO thinks I am opposed charter schools. Actually I'm not but the data does not support their success over public.

Here is my thought on how to take good schools and make them excellent...just my humble opinion:

1-Agree that public education may be a "right" but not a "given".

2-Eliminate much of the Federal and State regulations forcing it to be a "right" and "given". Let the schools do what they can do best!

3-Cut back on IEPs and EIPs by increasing remediation programs but at a reduced cost to IEPs and EIPs...Do not read into my comment thinking I am opposed to supporting children at risk. IEPs and EIPs are expensive and not sure how effective they are. There is currently too much classification resulting in too much medication. Establish after hours remediation programs! Make parents accountable for attendance and continue to offer them.

4-Stop teaching to the bottom or middle of the class and raise the overall standards in the school system, demanding more.

5-Allow children to fail. Make sure students are not being passed along especially in transition grades too.

6-Refocus on core fundamentals, using full blown phonic programs and heavy focus on comprehension. Teaching students to teach themselves through comprehension.

Many of the issues our schools face are self inflicted and government inflicted. We need to break the cycle by reducing government regulations and allowing schools to raise the standards.

Public education worked for most if not all of us but its not the same today. Administrators and teachers are faced with far more issues.

Just ask any teacher or administrator!
Meanwhile, thank you Fayette for the education you provided my child.

PTC Observer
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Mr. Sussberg - I

don't think you are against charter schools, I think you are for public schools.

Instead of pouring money down a bottomless jobs program, why don't we concentrate on educating children. Making schools accountable is key, I don't think a standards test devised by some government agency will ever measure, "learning". I just don't buy it Mr. Sussberg. Education is a long term proposition, the results aren't seen for decades. We are educating more foreign student in our Universities than ever, most leave the country after graduation because the opportunity isn't here.

Here's a fact for you, India has more honor students than America has students. We are falling behind because we are more interested in preserving a failed system than in actually competing in a world economy.

Did you read the paper on the growth of administrative jobs compared to teacher's jobs in public schools in my earlier post? How can you look at data like this and not be convinced that public schools are simply wealth redistribution? Or did you not bother to read it?

Reality Mr. Sussberg, is sometimes a difficult thing to grasp, especially for an insulated society like America.

Larry.Sussberg
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PTCO

Wealth Redistribution.

That's an interesting argument. I guess you could consider Medicare the same since the money goes to hospitals that employ staff, nurses and doctors. Our military is also a wealth redistributor with the military-industrial complex; 1,000 of companies run by administrators and executives employing 100,000s of employees.

I find that people who use the term "wealth redistribution" apply it to policies and programs, usually public, that they personally oppose are no longer a stakeholder in.

What I find even sadder is to see our generation, the baby boomers, so anxious to privatize or sell off any public asset that they believe no longer works even at the expense of the next generation. Our parents on the other hand made great sacrifices yet we, the baby boomers will do anything to reduce our tax burden to make 0 sacrifice.

The US is a great county and we are very insulated from the ills of the world, but it was our parents generation that created that, not us.

In the past 40+ years we have succeeded in deregulating strategic industires in pursuit of short term cost reductions for our personal gains, continual tax reductions, many that were temporary that are now the norm, outsourcing of millions of jobs for low cost labor to produce cheaper products for us to consume and now, that all of this has come home to roost, instead of fixing it, we, the baby boomers point fingers claiming waste and redistribution as the motive to sell off more in the name of 'free market'. We want to privatize schools, same with social security and Medicare all for the next generations to come up, of course.

Reality is we, the baby boomers are the selfish generation where our parents were the greatest generation.

You want to compete in a world market, invest the way our parents did, not be so quick to pull the trigger and sell off!

PTC Observer
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Mr. Sussberg - Wealth Redistribution

Well.....yes most of those things you mentioned are wealth redistribution. However, this point gets us into the subject of the proper role of government. What in your mind is the proper role of government? Is it, as most progressives believe, to use the power of government and its ability to legislate laws and taxes to promote and promulgate social engineering? To use force to extract from one group of citizens for the benefit of another group of citizens? Is this the proper role of government? Is this what our Founders had in mind?

As for your stroll down memory lane on what has happen economically over the last 40 years, what can I say? People are rational, they act in their own self interests, they buy things that cost less. This is human nature is it not Mr. Sussberg? Would you have government regulate human nature? Now think a little here, what do you think drives costs? Labor? Materials? Social engineering? Regulation at every step of production of a product? Why in the world do you think jobs are driven offshore Mr. Sussberg? Companies just like to employee the Chinese? The American people want it all, they want their social programs, they want their taxes to be low, they want to buy inexpensive goods and above all they want to complaint when their jobs are shipped offshore. We live in a global society, America is insulated from this reality, except of course when they have to compete in it. It cannot remain insulated and remain relevant. A country that is broke cannot keep its independence, it becomes a slave to its lenders.

You can be "for" public education if you like, but recognize that it is a jobs program, it is not competitive, its goal is not to teach children, its goal is to get more funding so it can hire more people. It is based on the notion that all Americans want to have their children educated and it's the role of government to provide that education. Well, it just doesn't work Mr. Sussberg, government "solutions" have never worked.

With the exception of defense, which benefits all in our society by protecting our freedom, your examples are correct, they are wealth redistribution.

Now, you may ask, what is the proper role of government if it is not to provide some "social net" for all those disadvantaged souls that can't fend for themselves? Well I have some news for you Mr. Sussberg, the proper role of government is to protect our freedom. That's it, nothing more. Our freedom to choose as long as that freedom does not infringe on someone else's rights. It was never met to provide a "social network". Our government should provide us with the freedom to associate, to risk our fortunes, and to fail or succeed based on our own abilities and learned skills.

Finally, Mr. Sussberg, the fact that our parents are held in our hearts with deepest respect, they too were human. They could be wrong. They were most certainly wrong to believe that government was the solution to our social shortcomings and needs. Time and history has proven them wrong.

Larry.Sussberg
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PTCO Live Free & Prosper!

The US you describe, existed centuries ago in the inital stages of establishment. Since the early 1800s, with our quest for capitalism that developed into our Imperialist mindset, America has grown, evolved and prospered. Most likely our evolution has been to your disgust not being in the purest form you now desire although you have most likely prospered from it. Now, you want change it.

That said why not set the first example by returning your social security, forego Medicare and turn back all government benefits since it has been ill received?

There are many islands you could move to create the US of 1776 where everyone fends for themselves in the puriest of minimal/nongovernmental forms. Possibly, the island described in Lord of The Flies...and should you and the others find Piggy, kill him as he is weak most likely representing the 47% of America you now hate so much.

Live free and prosper Kirk! Spock out

PTC Observer
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Mr. Sussberg. - You're

a product of our times.

Truth is not time dependent Mr. Sussberg, it is the same now as it was in the 18th Century.

Lord of the Flies? Are you kidding? Do you really believe this tripe? Do you believe that given total freedom we would turn into savages?

It's just more socialist garbage Mr. Sussberg, nothing more.

As for SS and Medicare, what makes you think that I need either? If I did, perhaps I would be justified in retrieving part of the property taken from me by force. Your argument is flawed, I would prefer to simply get my money back adjusted for government induced inflation.

BTW, you're watching way too much TV.

S. Lindsey
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PTCO.. it is what always happens when pushed..

... it inevitably has to be Central Planning or Nihilism.

Most People including those on the so called Right don't know what true Freedom is. This Generation nor our Parents Generations has ever lived under it.

So thus they have no concept of what it feels like to be really free, they don't teach it in our Schools and kids today think Government is there for them to use like a ATM.

This was one of the reasons that Obama got most of their vote.. he promised Government.. and lot's of it. To them Government is free Education, loan forgiveness, free stuff and another Mommy to wipe their little snotty noses.

I would say we are doomed... but... as Tonto said to the Lone Ranger as they were being surrounded by Indians "What do you mean WE paleface"

Joe Kawfi
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Ill-gotten?

The only people that receive SS/Medicare as "ill-gotten" goods are the worthless, lazy slugs that collect after paying nothingn into it. Must of us hardworking Americans paid into SS and Medicare against our better judgement, and therefore we are entitled to it. It's a shame that the government is so corrupt and incompetent that they spent it all on wasteful grubberment programs and vote buying of malcontents.

Davids mom
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Wow!

From Kawfi:

Quote:

Must of us hardworking Americans paid into SS and Medicare against our better judgement, and therefore we are entitled to it.

Entitled? Interesting. Only cut the 'entitlements' of those who did not work for it. (Most contributions were taken out of 'paychecks' Oh well.

Joe Kawfi
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That's right

You don't pay into the system, you aren't entitled to it and therefore should not receive the benefit. Only a marxist/socialist would argue with that.

John Mrosek
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Very simple 2 part solution to Social Security

We have a very simple 2 part solution to Social Security.

Social Security has morphed into a socialist wealth transfer bureaucracy while it was started as a simple safety net to prevent poverty among the elderly. We are a civilized, benevolent country and we should take care of the truly needy. Social Security was adopted in 1930 and emulated the existing German system. Germany had a qualifying age of 65. Why? Because the life expectancy was 65 in 1930 !

Two very simple solutions would largely resolve Social Security: (1) raise the qualifying age to 70, and, (2) adopt a means test. If you don't need it, you don't get it.

Congress won't do either. Just ask Lynn Westmoreland. They do not have the political will power, being blinded by ambition and dreams of Congressional retirement packages. The best we see out of this dysfunctional bunch is a promise to quit spending more each year than we take in IN TEN (10) YEARS !!! That is disastrous.

Our country is truly in very deep trouble.

suggarfoot
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what is eating up SS

Is not the elderly at all. As I've stated, I've been helping an elderly relative with a lot of rental property. When I took over, they were doing Section 8 because they felt they would get a steady check from the government, and not have to chase down renters. They were getting a check alright, but for the most part, these people had ruined what she had so it wasn't "a deal" at all.

I got rid of the lion's share of them, but quite a few still beat feet to us to fill out applications. What I found was a real eye opener and I think worth sharing. During the elections, I thought they were wrong about one half supporting the other. Now I believe it.

When I asked about income, they would be on SSI and their kids on Social Security. I was amazed. Many many were like this.

One day I asked one on SSI that was trying to get their kid on SS how they thought that possible. I was told that the normal acting child I saw (4-5) had seen someone shot and was ruined for life because of it. In asking how, she said the kid had nightmares and the doctor was gonna get it for him. I was horrified. No one has a storybook childhood, and that shouldn't qualify you for SS. But they start early with this BS and then these people are on it for L.I.F.E.

They do far more damage to the system than some little old lady that manybe has 15-20 years max left in front of her.

The problem is the crooked (VOTE WHORES) politicans that pass laws and let them on SS and the crooked MDs that build a practice around this. Did you know that preemies (babies) get either SSI or SS for YEARS?

THIS IS SUCKING THE LIFE OUT OF THE SAFTEY NET FOR THE ELDERLY

PTC Observer
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John Mrosek - Very simple 1 step plan

Abolish it, replace it with private charity, replace it with personal responsibility, replace it with a cohesive family unit, replace it because the only thing it does is make us more dependent on apportioned government power.

Money is power and the government will use it against its opponents like a club. Step out of line, and you will suddenly find you or your family without SS, step out of line no healthcare, step out of line no bread, step out of line you must be mentally ill and be imprisoned, step out of line....well you could go to prison for any number of violated laws or regulations, step out of line and you could find yourself dead.

No Mr. Mrosek, unless you have seen this with your own eyes, you can never believe it could happen at all, but it does happen, everyday. If we continue down this socialist path, it will one day happen here too. It is the ultimate end game of the socialist philosophy, an elite group deciding what is best for society, against its will. The ultimate nanny state, but the nanny has a baton.

Our country is indeed in very deep trouble, but SS is just a symptom of the trouble coming our way.

Unlike Mr. Sussberg's dreary assessment that we would all become savages if given the opportunity of freedom of choice, I believe the human spirit would soar and give wings to great happiness and wealth. Free men never fail to improve our society, because they are working in their self interests. Free exchanges of ideas and material goods that unleash the full potential of mankind with a government empowered by the people to protect their Rights cannot fail. Indeed, it can only flourish.

If we fail, Mr. Mrosek, it will be because we have forgotten history and/or learned nothing from it.

All it takes in a simple 1 step plan, get government social engineering out of our lives and let the eagle of freedom take wing. Take the money out of government.

Joe Kawfi
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Means testing? Are you crazy?
John Mrosek wrote:

We have a very simple 2 part solution to Social Security.
(1) raise the qualifying age to 70, and, (2) adopt a means test. If you don't need it, you don't get it.

Tell you what, John. If we don't need it, then we shouldn't have been forced by the government to contribute to it. It's not our fault that government elected to squander the SS fund on other pet projects.
GW Bush attempted to fix it through private accounts, but the politicians and beaurocrats would have none of it. It made too much sense, I suppose.

No Social Security payments? O.K., then stop deducting it from my paycheck. NO JUSTICE!, NO PEACE!

stranger than f...
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Misremembering history, Joe

Interesting that you invoke Bush II in positive terms when complaining about the government's mismanagement of retirement programs. In a blunder as disastrous as invading Iraq, Bush ADDED Part D to Medicare, thus EXPANDING the government's responsibility vastly with no accompanying income addition to support it.

Bush II started two wars, expanded Medicare, and put it all on the credit card we owe to China. Talk about no justice or peace! There's a good reason no serious GOP candidate wants GW Bush anywhere close to his/her campaign.

tgarlock
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Joe, SS was never designed to be an . . .

. . . investment program of any type. It has always been a TRANSFER program, shifting money from current earners to those no longer working. There never has been any intent in the program to imply ownership of the money you pay in.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the pgm and I despise how Congress has robbed it blind. But keep in mind it is simply a transfer pgm.

Terry Garlock

PTC Observer
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Mr. Garlock - I believe

you could use the past tense in your last sentence, it is anything but a transfer program today. There is no SS fund, it is mixed with the general funding of the government.

So, it's intent was a transfer program, but this only works if you have more workers funding than participants drawing from the fund.

You may find it interesting how the International Socialist Review views the development of this legislation. Not surprisingly, it was the socialists that were the driving force behind SS, not FDR. He, according to them, was forced into action by Unemployment Councils. Given the progressive movement during the time, it is likely that in this case it was the socialists that won the day. FDR was simply a politician that wanted to get re-elected.

Here's the link to the Socialist propaganda.

http://www.

isreview.org/issues/71/feat-unemployed.shtml

John Mrosek
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SS was and is a transfer

SS was and is a transfer program. It started as a simple poor elderly safety net. It became corrupted during the roaring '60s and has ultimately become abused by Congress. Forgot the accounting abuses--- it is a government transfer program. Among a federal government benefits package that includes numerous free cell phones per person, SS is one program that is not going away. Terry Garlock is correct.

Joe Kawfi--- I could not agree more. I would like Congress out of my life. I would also like Peachtree City out of my life. I pay my taxes, I get my autos inspected for air protection, I do not use county water during the drought for water protection and I pay my traffic fines. But I want as little of those people in my life as possible. Larry Sussberg---- how can you possibly disagree with that life view ?

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John Mrosek

Actually, I don't disagree with that view.
What I want is to make sure that future generations have safety nets, most likely private ones such as tax free saving and/or health accounts. Too much complaining on both sides of the argument, and not enough effort to fix the mess, whatever the alternatives are. I'm all for less government but not so quick to have fire sales of assets believing that "free markets" and "personal charity" is the fix all. Anyway, "personal charity" is a government program as well, its tax deductible.

PTC Observer
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Mr. Sussberg - Charity

Shouldn't be subsidized by the taxpayer and if we had a flat tax system it wouldn't be.

I've already given you a "fix", it's called freedom to choose.

BTW, unfunded liabilities exceed total national assets by $40 trillion, that includes your assets Mr. Sussberg and your children's children. So, selling off the government's assets won't come close to solving the problem, but it could get us a little closer.

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PTCO

I'm sorry, I forgot about the flat tax!

PTC Observer
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Mr. Sussberg

chag Pesach sameach!

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PTCO

zagazunt

זאַגאַזונט

PTC Observer
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Mr. Morsek - No

No I disagree, in order to have simple transfer program you must have a fund. Revenue in through taxes into this fund must exceed outflows. In this case, new workers joining the workforce must have earnings that exceed the entitlement payments to the retired former workers.

This is not how it works today, there is no separate SS fund, it was combined into the general tax revenue. Tha 'twas one of the first "adjustments" the politicians made to the plan. The jockeying of the funds included mandatory retirement and an ever increasing minimum wage. These requirements allowed for more young people to compete for higher paying jobs, at least in the theory of the social planners. The increase in minimum wage would also allow for greater funding into the nonexistent fund. Even if we had a separate fund it would not be sustainable, we don't have enough new workers entering the workforce to sustain it against the payouts coming in the next decade.

So you see, Mr. Morsek, it is no longer a transfer program as such, but it is an entitlement paid for using general tax revenues and of course the old standby.....debt. Lots and lots of debt.

SS, Prescription drug coverage and Medicare is about $123 Trillion under funded, that's a little over $1 million per taxpayer.

The math doesn't add up, does it?

stranger than f...
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Terry, Thank you for the accurate history

I'm amazed how often in the Citizen blog, the writers have no idea of the history of the topic about which they complain. No one remembers the major plank in Al Gore's 2000 presidential run was placing FICA contributions in a "lock box" so the government could not spend them. No one remembers that Reagan tripled the deficit. No one seems to remember that George W. Bush started all the auto bailouts and the deficit was doubled under his administration.

I don't mind people criticizing President Obama or anyone else as long as they resist ignoring the historical record on their champions.

Again, thank you for being accurate.

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stf..

.. and we are amazed at how people continue to excuse the present by blaming EVERYTHING on the past.

Just because Reagan did it.. didn't make it right.. conversely just because Obama does it... still doesn't make it right.

Just because Bush was a Progressive doesn't make us like Progressive policies any better.

You guys need to start looking what is happening today and what is going to happen tomorrow and stop trying to justify the Monetizing of the Debt, printing $85 Billion dollars A MONTH (that's a Trillion per year btw...ON TOP OF the Trillion in deficit spending).

It has been 4 years since Obama has taken office.. What has changed...not much. We still have record deficits (promised to knocked that down in his first term remember?). We have added $5 Trillion to the National debt. Record numbers of people on Food Stamps, record numbers of people on disability, record number of people out of the workforce and on and on and on...

STF.. the past of America is screwed up.. you and I agree on that. The Future however, is worse. Time to look forward not back and actually open your eyes and see that we are in for some serious birthing pains. The Birth of a dependent America is right around the corner and if you want to lower our standard of living to that of the rest of the World, well all you have to do is.. do nothing..

Keep walking forward while walking backwards...

stranger than f...
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Just be accurate about the past as you look forward

As long as the blogger is accurate about the past he/she is citing, I have no problem with the citation.

S. Lindsey
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Oh it's accurate...

... I always do my research.

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Stranger - History

And it was Reagan in 1983, that had legislation passed that taxed income from SS for the first time. He signed it into law in order to "save" SS.

A lot like a dog chasing its tail, don't you think?

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They already do that with earned income

If you get paid for doing a job - which many retirees do, they only let you earn a certain amount before they start reducing your social security payment. So, how big a step is it to monitor investment income (dividends) and if you earn too much that way - lower or eliminate social security payments to that person. That way everybody pays in and those of us who were "fortunate" to have invested some money for our own retirement don't get much of a return - if any. It is indeed forced charitable giving, but oddly enough, that wouldn't trouble me. I'd just take the position that my social security is supporting 2 or 3 people who really need it and I'm fine with that. After all, they could be my own parents or other relative.

They could also raise the age to 70 and have no earning cap on contributions. If they phase these 2 things in gradually, there wouldn't be much fallout.

And in that sewer that is Washington, the idea would sell. Dems love redistribution and they love to bash greedy Republicans and tax the rich. The Republicans can take the position that they "saved" social security for those Republicans that truly need it. I like it.

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If SS was so great make it Voluntary...

...but then they have admitted it would collapse so.... Ponzi Schemes always do.

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SL: Yes indeed
S. Lindsey wrote:

...but then they have admitted it would collapse so.... Ponzi Schemes always do.

Can't stop that new money flowing in constantly because then the whole house of BS would collapse, despite the whines from those infected with the math-illiteracy you see here and in the general population.

SS is a social welfare program that doesn't pay for itself and anyone who suggests otherwise is a complete idiot. Call it what it is: a welfare program that is PARTIALLY self-funded but by no means anywhere close to being 100% self-funded and it never can be.

When you start a government program that everyone in the country is suddenly entitled to that has never paid a dime into the program and can only survive by new workers/money paying off the ex-workers/money, you're running a Ponzi scheme. If you or I started some kind of investment scheme based on this exact principle, we'd be biting the pillow in prison.

PTC Observer
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Means Testing

Is just another way of saying we will make the theft of your property complete, not partial. "We're taking it all."

Oh yes, whether you like it or not.

Don't like it? Well we have a nice little jail for you to go to, and we'll keep your money too.

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PTC-O & property theft

What would you call "Govt offset"? That's where the Govt keeps part of what I would normally be authorized in SS just because I get a Govt pension! Do believe I contributed to BOTH when working.
Plain & simpletheft in my book!

PTC Observer
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AHG - Well

That's an interesting question AHG, you see the way I see it, government employees should not pay taxes at all. It's simply moving money around, as a taxpayer, I pay you for your work as a government worker, then I take some of it back. That's just moving money around.

So, the solution is to pay government workers for their work in an after tax way, so naturally pay would be lower than private pay. Alternatively, all workers would pay a flat tax, monthly. You could write a check for it or you could use a credit card. Either way, taxpayers would feel the actual pain of paying the government. At the moment, they don't feel any pain because they never see the money in their bank accounts. It's "with held" or seized before you ever see it or hold it in your hands.

So, to answer your question. If we didn't have SS you wouldn't be worried about a "government offset" and there wouldn't be a government pension. You would simply get to keep your money and invest it anyway you wanted to invest it. Naturally, having all this freedom to keep and risk your own money would be a frightening proposition for those inclined to rest their "security" on the government.

So, in short.....yes it is theft, but not for the "off set" reasoning.

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Yes let's invest...

.... Invest aka Tax and spend... Let's continue to throw money at the problem because surely 50 years of doing so eventually will give us some good results.

hutch866
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PTC Observer
PTC Observer wrote:

Here's a fact for you, India has more honor students than America has students. We are falling behind because we are more interested in preserving a failed system than in actually competing in a world economy.

Gotta ask here, you talking HS kids or College? Would love to see where you got this factoid.

PTC Observer
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Hutch866 - I got it wrong

actually I should have said that India has more honor students than America has kids. In 2009, Sony put on a sales presentation in Rome, Italy and they put together a video with streaming factoids. This was just one of them.

Here's the entire video, please piece together the link below.

http://www.

youtube.com/watch?v=E87872nS8Uw

Interesting but a little out of date, for the USA it has only gotten worse.

What does it all mean?

In my book, it means that knowledge is power, and we're losing it.

G35 Dude
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In education as most things "You get what you pay for".

The reason that Schools of Education are the slums of most college campuses is because the students that pursue this type career are not the best and brightest. They not the best and brightest because the jobs that they will get even after years of training are not very high paying and are not seen as cream of the crop careers. In short this is a capitalist society and teaching is not where the money is.

One reason that teachers can’t teach our kids is because the kids are all lumped into a class with little regard to capabilities. This forces the teacher to teach to the lowest common denominator. The Government requires it be done this way. So I do believe that private industry would do a better job of educating our kids. We can demand data proving this before we move in that direction and thereby stall progress from ever happening. Or use common sense to make things better. Let me pose this example for you to consider. With schools closing here in Fayette and teachers being laid off, how will those teachers that stay be chosen? Teachers with tenure will probably be safe? Even if time has past them by? Will this maybe force some excellent young teachers to be put out into the street? Probably since this is how government works. Private industry would be free to keep the best without the handcuffs placed on schools by government. Private industry would be free to separate kids by capabilities so that the teacher would not be handcuffed by lower achievers. I mean if a school has three 4th grade classes, put the top third in one class. Then the middle third. And then the bottom third. And teach each class to it’s abilities. Government will always be more concerned about political correctness than by truly educating our kids. The only way to truly break this cycle is private schools and better pay and more respect for teachers.

Davids mom
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Another thought - G35
Quote:

The only way to truly break this cycle is private schools and better pay and more respect for teachers.

A poorly prepared teacher is still poorly prepared - whether in a private or public school. Right?

G35 Dude
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DM- Poor teachers
Quote:

A poorly prepared teacher is still poorly prepared - whether in a private or public school. Right?

Absolutely! My point is the better brighter person will teach at the one that pays better and has fewer restrictions. Probably not the public school. The better brighter person will choose the career that pays better. At this point today it may not be teaching.

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G35Dude, the pay scale in many private schools for teachers is

lower than in the public schools. Teachers choose to teach at the private schools because they do not have the problems they encounter in public schools. Most private schools have strict dress and conduct codes. Bad behavior is not tolerated, students do not disrupt classes and you do not have teachers being shown the disrespect they face in many public schools. Parents paying for their child's education in private schools know that if their child does not follow the rules and regulations they stand the real possibility of being asked to leave. Nothing like what you find in the public schools and. too, they are usually teaching smaller classes. For these reasons many teachers prefer private school even with lower pay. At least this was the situation when I worked at one of our private schools.

G35 Dude
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MYTMITE-Thanks

Thanks for the feedback. It is my understanding that Fayette County is the lowest paying in the Metro Atlanta area, but still gets good teachers for many of the same reasons.

Davids mom
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G35 Dude
Quote:

The Government requires it be done this way

Interesting. In what state is this a requirement?

Quote:

Private industry would be free to separate kids by capabilities so that the teacher would not be handcuffed by lower achievers. I mean if a school has three 4th grade classes, put the top third in one class. Then the middle third. And then the bottom third. And teach each class to it’s abilities. Government will always be more concerned about political correctness than by truly educating our kids. The only way to truly break this cycle is private schools and better pay and more respect for teachers.

Teachers who have been taught how to team-teach - and organize students according to their need have solved some of the concerns that you claim cannot be handled by 'government'. Your 'plan' to place the lowest achievers in one class - is a sample not of political correctness - but a sample of ignorance on how students of today 'learn'.

One reason that other countries are ahead of us is because they have valued the responsibility of the 'teacher' - and encourage their brightest and best to enter the profession. You're right on about that!

G35 Dude
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DM-More explaination please
Quote:

Your 'plan' to place the lowest achievers in one class - is a sample not of political correctness - but a sample of ignorance on how students of today 'learn'.

Please explain. I see no advantage to placing high achievers in the same class with low achievers. The teacher will have to spend time teaching to two different levels. Since the teachers time is split, both suffer.

BTW, did you read wildcats response below?

Quote:

Interesting. In what state is this a requirement?

Refer to Lindsey's response below.

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G35 Dude
Quote:

Please explain. I see no advantage to placing high achievers in the same class with low achievers. The teacher will have to spend time teaching to two different levels. Since the teachers time is split, both suffer.

Individuals who have received education as to how the human mind works in a group situation would see several advantages to having learners of different achievement levels in some classes. In a learning situation, it is not always the 'teacher' who is doing the teaching. Humans gain greater insight into the knowledge that they have acquired by having the opportunity to share that knowledge with another. Humans also gain a greater understanding of a difficult concept, by having that concept explained by a peer.

Wildcats perception: There are very few groups in schools where everyone is on the same 'level'. Even with the high/middle/low organization of classes - a teacher still has to organize the lessons for 'different' levels of learning. Humans cannot so easily be classified/organized/ as numbers or objects. With the advancement of systems and programs for 'organizing' classrooms - often the human element is forgotten. Teachers with outstanding knowledge in content must also have outstanding knowledge of the working of the human mind as it operates in the group setting. Ask any outstanding teacher - and the reason they don't become 'bored' is because each class is unique and different - because the students are unique and different. One program/size does not fit all - hence the importance of having an outstanding/knowledgeable teacher who is able to meet the needs of the students in their class. Outstanding teachers know many techniques/skills for meeting the needs of their students.

I was a student in school in the 40's, 50's and 60's. (As one breathes daily, one is still a student) The teachers who I remember as wonderful were those who used many methods to introduce a concept, provided practice, involved the learner, and reviewed and retaught if necessary. The teachers who bored me to death were those who 'lectured' - assigned a reading assignment (then sat down to do busy work at their desk) - and allowed no interaction among the students in the class.

Quote:

One reason that teachers can’t teach our kids is because the kids are all lumped into a class with little regard to capabilities. This forces the teacher to teach to the lowest common denominator. The Government requires it be done this way.

What are you basing this statement on? Are you a teacher, a parent, a school volunteer? You have the 'right' to ask your school administrator about how classes are organized for learning in your community school. You have the 'right' as a community person to visit your local public school and observe the educational process. What you may find are good teachers, poor teachers, outstanding teachers: good students, poor students, outstanding students. My experience here in Fayette County - as a volunteer - is the schools that I visited have a preponderance of good teachers and good students. Good and outstanding teachers are using different methods to meet the unique needs of the students in their communities.

G35 Dude
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DM-Teachers career choice.
Quote:

What are you basing this statement on? Are you a teacher, a parent, a school volunteer? You have the 'right' to ask your school administrator about how classes are organized for learning in your community school. You have the 'right' as a community person to visit your local public school and observe the educational process.

I am a parent. A former school volunteer. Friends with several teachers. A human being with a years of dealing with schools at different levels. A lot of my perspective comes from comments from teachers that state that because of Government interference that hinders their ability to teach they regret their career choice. Maybe some teachers on this blog can comment on this for us?

Davids mom
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Government 'requirements'

When Title I and state funding became available, there were many guidelines that were included in the requirements for obtaining that money. In the state where I was working, business, I.e. publishing companies began 'hawking' ready made programs that they felt would assist districts/schools in monitoring progress of students. Many of these programs required unrealistic paper work for the classroom teacher - and often sound teaching practices were sacrificed in order to supposedly meet the monitoring guidelines and validation of concepts taught and mastered. My point in this conversation is getting rid of Schools of Education is not the answer - but in my opinion would have the same negative consequence as getting rid of medical schools. In some states, Schools of Education are involved in meaningful research on how to effectively teach the child to succeed in the 21st century . In our schools today, we are working with humans, not objects - and when a teacher or teaching method fails, a child fails. Modern technology has helped some with 'record keeping'. . . But not necessarily with improving the 'product'. ( product equals a well educated human being who has the ability to use basic skills to analyze and solve problems). Simple solutions like ' get government out of education' or close Schools of Education are not the answer in my opinion. Teaching is not easy or simple, and the cruelest thing in the world in the learning process is to send an ill prepared teacher into a room full of students . Surgery is not easy - and we take steps not to send an ill prepared doctor into an operating room.

A student interested in teaching should have to pass a battery of basic academic skill tests in their sophomore year in college before being exposed to a class where he/she participates in the classroom experience under the guidance of a master teacher. If the student passes this class,I (half a semester) and he is still interested in becoming a classroom teacher, he should have classes in developing curriculum, child psychology and classroom management, along with the subjects of his major and continue to participate in a classroom at least once a week. In the students junior and senior year, he should also participate in actual classroom experience - with student teaching in his senior year. Upon being accepted in grad school (School of Education), the student should be involved in research of the learning process. Upon receiving the advanced degree- the student can be certified. During this educational journey - if the student finds out the classroom is not for him, he can still have his BA in content area- and not be solely responsible for a classroom of children. This was the process when the brightest and best wanted to teach. On the job training spells failure for too many teachers and students.

Once a person has developed this expertise, their salary should be comparable to other professions that require this much formal education.

Teacher input is welcome!

G35 Dude
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Less Government would be good!!
Quote:

Simple solutions like ' get government out of education' or close Schools of Education are not the answer in my opinion.

Did I say we should close Schools of Education? As for the other point, I am for less government not just in education but all things!!!

Davids mom
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Less government G35

Does that include funds to improve educational offerings for school districts if requested? Someone stated recently that we want the best - but we don't want to pay for it, My response includes a response to the authors suggestions.. I'm encouraged that there are some who may not see closing schools of education as a solution . How about a 'government' that is not wasteful; better monitored; and more responsive to the citizenry?

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DM-I said and meant less Government interference.
Quote:

Many of the issues our schools face are self inflicted and government inflicted. We need to break the cycle by reducing government regulations and allowing schools to raise the standards.

The above quote is from Mr Sussberg above. I agree with him so much that I wish I had thought of it!!! LOL

Davids mom
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G35

No disagreement here! I know I sound like a broken record - but we need well trained teachers to implement those higher standards. I think we're all on the same page.

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DM
Davids mom wrote:
Quote:

The Government requires it be done this way

Interesting. In what state is this a requirement?

It is called Federal Funding of State Schools DM.. These funds come with strings.. You will follow the "Recommendations" or the funding will be stripped from your system.. SO in answer to your question.. ALL 57 States.

Davids mom
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SL
Quote:

ALL 57 States.

Really?

Title I does make RECOMMENDATIONS. The local district and the local school is not penalized for not implementing all recommendations - but is penalized for not implementing those activities that are in the schools approved 'plan'. (Which is written with school, district, parent and community input.) The Federal and State funded programs do have 'guidelines'. How those guidelines are implemented is up to the school and local district. The guideline of meeting the needs of all students does not REQUIRE tracking. Many districts have used 'team-teaching/creative scheduling and other methods to meet the needs of all students.

S. Lindsey
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Uh...no

It is NOT up to the School district how those funds are spent... The Money is spent the way it is "recommended" or it does not get renewed the next fiscal year.

You take the money you play the game.

Davids mom
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SL

Which of the 57 states did you develop your school funding expertise ?

Davids mom
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SL

Please notify the 'governmen't that there are 7 states without representation in Congress.

S. Lindsey
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No DM Obama represents them don't you remember..?

"Obama said, "It is just wonderful to be back in Oregon. And over the last 15 months we've traveled to every corner of the United States. I've now been in 57 states; I think one left to go."

PTC Observer
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Lindsey - Why

Why do you persist to make Mr. Obama look like a complete idiot using his own words? Mr. Obama clearly understands that there are 50 states, now.

He's a Harvard graduate for crying out loud, he's a quick learner.

I can't wait to see his presidential library and all those documents concerning his early formative years, the kind of philosophy he supported, his thesis, his key teachers that formed his thinking. I just can't wait to see it all. Who knows, we may even find out about his ghost writer. After all Jack Kennedy had Ted Sorenson.

S. Lindsey
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PTCO we might not have to wait long at all...

Depends on who takes the House.. we might just see a coming out party for the Messiah.

Davids mom
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PTCO/Lindsey

Quite the intellectual duo! LOL

S. Lindsey
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Well if you can't make cogent arguments...

...go for the less then intellectual slam.

S. Lindsey
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Just the lower portion...

... but all 57 work the same DM... and yes I do know what I am talking about.

wildcat
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G35....dude...

...that's how they used to do it. It's called tracking and they did it when I was in school (60s and 70s) but they don't do it anymore mainly because of self-esteem issues. Alright, maybe because of IDEA? ADA? It's racist? Who knows why they no longer do it, but they don't. It worked then and would probably work now. Maybe in another 20 years we will be doing it again?

I once worked with a teacher in a FC middle school that couldn't perform operations with fractions. She went to a college in Atl. (education major) and she was in the process of suing because she felt that one of the other teachers had mocked her in front of the kids. The other teacher didn't know that she couldn't work with fractions. I don't know and don't care what ever came of that. What remains with me is that she graduated from college and couldn't do basic math. That's sad. Shame on the college...how did she even get in???

PTC Observer
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Wildcat & Dude - As

I pointed out to Mr. Sussberg, public education is a jobs program, nothing more than that. Grants and the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program support this jobs policy. In fact, "teaching" in public schools has become another way to redistribute wealth. It has very little to do with educating children in the most effective and efficient way to achieve maximum results. Mr. Sussberg wants data to support Charter schools, but he's asking the wrong question. The question is what is wrong with public education? I answer, just about everything.

Read this study on the on going jobs program. You'll have to put the string together so I don't go into The Citizen twilight zone.

http://www.

edchoice.org/CMSModules/EdChoice/FileLibrary/968/The-School-Staffing-Surge---Decades-of-Employment-Growth-in-America-s-Public-Schools--Part-2.pdf

Larry.Sussberg
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Privatize Schools?

Really?

Show me the data that supports that charter schools have higher success rates than public schools?

Actually, there is no data supporting that charter school offer a better alternative with higher success rates. What they do, is take our tax dollars and squeeze profits for themselves, the charter school companies, at the expense of teachers, supplies, programs, etc.

Raising standards in our schools, by not teaching to lowest level in the classroom and holding parents accountable are just a few of the answers.... FCBOE needs to study successful school systems. Montgomery County PA, Scarsdale NY, Northern VA. There are common threads to all of these and other successful systems.

We continue to flounder by NOT raising the standards! Raise the standards, offer parents a few alternatives for children to catch up through remediation and that's it. Too much time is spent "classifying" and medicating children. Too many kids have EIPs and IEPs when there is nothing wrong with them.

Simplify and educate...back to the fundamentals!

Davids mom
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Charter Schools in Georgia

http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/External-Affairs-and-Policy/Charter-Schools/Pag...

Maybe if the public realized that Charter Schools are an extension of public schools - the discussion would be based on actual facts.

Quote:

Raise the standards, offer parents a few alternatives for children to catch up through remediation and that's it.

I certainly don't disagree with our Superintendent - but I firmly believe that the deliverers of the education (teachers) need to receive a better education in how to deliver. This would improve the 'product'. IMO

Quote:

Too much time is spent "classifying" and medicating children. Too many kids have EIPs and IEPs when there is nothing wrong with them.

This is where 'education' in the identification of children with learning problems needs to be improved. A teacher with a 'degree' in mathematics' and very little actual contact/experience with children does not have the expertise to make a meaningful identification. There has been improvement in recent years in the accreditation of teachers throughout our country - but there are too many teachers who have received tenure who do not have this expertise. Teachers who have good classroom management skills have fewer 'behavior problems' in the classroom.
Often children referred for IEP's are really behavior problems that a skilled teacher in conjunction with cooperating parents could assist in finding solutions that lead to improvement in learning.

Communities/schools that have established meaningful IEP meetings have prescribed intervention activities that have helped the child. This should not be stopped.

PTC Observer
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Mr. Sussberg - Yes really

I don't need data, I just need to look at the results so far.....public schools don't work. Markets do work, rewarding results work, dismissing those teachers, laborers, pilots, or any other profession that doesn't perform works.

If you are a good businessman you know this already. The fact is the government doesn't do anything well and in particular they don't teach our children well.

I agree let's get back to the fundamentals of the free market and rational thought, or would you rather deny reality?

Larry.Sussberg
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PTCO-actually yes

As a business owner I have always made my decisions based on data and research.

Show me data that charter schools work and I'll be the first in line to agree.

Personally, I'm not willing to gamble. 1 out of 4 Americans, approximately 79 million are under the age of 18. That's 25% of our population who are school children, grades K-12. They deserve better, they and their parents deserve school systems that works, public or privatized. Where's the data?

PTC Observer
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Mr. Sussberg - If

you like the results of the current system, then you like the results.

Personally, I think it stinks. Why is it that you think so many want to get into Charter schools?

Looking for Superman (The Movie) Not data, but reality.

What's your solution Mr. Sussberg? Throw more money at it? Tweak it to death? Keep doing the same thing over and over again?

The fact is public education isn't working. In my opinion, it will never work, because it's a massive jobs program and nothing more. Education of our children is not the goal, it's the excuse.

Davids mom
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PTCO - More babble
Quote:

I just need to look at the results so far.....public schools don't work. Markets do work, rewarding results work, dismissing those teachers, laborers, pilots, or any other profession that doesn't perform works

Using data would improve your understanding of the stated generalities. According to national/state statistics and local support, schools like Starr Mills; Whitewater High School; MacIntosh; Fayette County High School - are 'working'. Data: High school graduation rate; college acceptance; academic scores; community support. I acknowledge that Georgia's standing in the data is not to be celebrated - but our students who are accepted in college are graduating and doing well. Our current education system needs 'rehauling' - that is a reality. It must start with the education given at college level to 'teachers'. Teachers deserve the community respect (pay) that is given to other professionals (doctors, etc.)

Quote:

rewarding results work

but we must be aware of what happened throughout the country when we tied 'pay' to test results

I agree. We have lost some of the finest teachers I know to industry - because of 'pay'. Men make great teachers - but because of 'society' - they are judged by how they can 'take care' of their family - and the pay for teachers is still geared to 'a womens' pay scale as an addition to the family income headed by a male. It was the public school system that met the challenge after Sputnik to improve our engineering programs. There are corrupt practices in organizations that offer 'private school education' as well as public schools. Many of these organizations (public/private) use teachers who are not qualified to work with the 'minds' of our children. Our brightest high school students who have the desire to work with children should be encouraged to seek the Master's Degree in Education - and use their expertise in delivering the best education available in the world to our students. The college curriculum should not only give them the expertise in a 'subject' - but also the expertise in working with groups of students in the learning process.

We don't want poorly prepared doctors in our hospitals - and we shouldn't want poorly prepared teachers in our schools.

S. Lindsey
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Data... Ok here tis...

Charters in 2011 were more likely than traditional schools to far exceed their predicted performance based on student background. To a slightly lesser extent, charters were also more likely to far under-perform their prediction.
When looking at the distribution of charter performance in terms of numbers of students served, about twice as many students in 2011 enrolled in schools far exceeding their prediction than were served by far under-performing schools.
Charters that serve low-income students exceeded their prediction at high rates relative to the traditional system; students at charters serving low-income populations are five times more likely than their non-charter counterparts to be served by a school in the top 5th percentile.

Again put it together because like others I get banished...

http://www.

calcharters.org/advocacy/accountability/portraitofthemovement/

Davids mom
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Info from cal charters

California Charter Schools are offered under the public school system. As stated in your sharing:

Quote:

Charters in 2011 were more likely than traditional schools to far exceed their predicted performance based on student background.

Charter Schools offer a different curriculum; style; etc. than a traditional school - but a Charter School is not a private school in California. Charter Schools have been successful in California - but they are carefully monitored in districts - and those that are not performing according to their prediction - are closed. Staff, students, parents and administrators all must agree on the purpose/goals of a stated Charter School. It appears that the majority of participants in the Fayette County school system are satisfied with the offerings and outcomes of this system. Would a Charter School be supported here?

S. Lindsey
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The simple fact is...

Government run and Government controlled Education is not working. The problem is forced curriculum and Teachers Unions.

When you can't fire someone that is under-performing there is no incentive for the rest to excel... and when certain groups are nearly exempt from being held to the same standards as the rest then why try?

However IF the purpose of all this is to keep a pacified and dumbed down populace so they can be controlled... well that IS working... note the last election.

NUK_1
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SL
S. Lindsey wrote:

Government run and Government controlled Education is not working. The problem is forced curriculum and Teachers Unions.

I'd definitely add parents as the #1 problem, even above government run education. There are too many who place little value on education and are apathetic at best.

Quote:

When you can't fire someone that is under-performing there is no incentive for the rest to excel... and when certain groups are nearly exempt from being held to the same standards as the rest then why try?

However IF the purpose of all this is to keep a pacified and dumbed down populace so they can be controlled... well that IS working... note the last election.

Don't worry...government run and mandated healthcare will instead be a roaring success despite all evidence of the past to the contrary!

What really gets me is the congressional oversight of the USPO-minus any funding-forcing them to continue to lose money and not allow them to make the changes necessary to try and survive, like ending Saturday mail service. Sheesh!

PTC Observer
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Schools of Education

seems to be an oxymoron.

Want to improve outcomes?

Let's privatize schools, allow experience in the real world to count toward teaching privileges, reward achievement (better pay) and above all rid our children of "entitled" teachers.

Sell all schools to private interests and let the best school win. It can't get any worse.

Davids mom
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Walter Williams - another point of view

There are few educators who would argue with the facts presented by the author. My point of disagreement is with his solution. If we had a slew of incompetent doctors, would the solution be to close the medical schools or improve them? Teachers are working with the minds of our children, our future. The teachers of the future must be the top achievers in their academic journey. They must be the most knowledgable in the working of the human mind and how humans learn. They must have that unique characteristic of an outstanding teacher, the ability to ascertain the need of the student and the skill to meet that need. Schools of Education have evidently lowered their standards for admission. This was a mistake, but in today's world the ability to teach is not as sought after as the ability to heal, solve an engineering problem, make a convincing speech - skills taught by outstanding teachers. Those individuals who could not pass the CBEST, had college degrees! We have taught humans how to pass a test - but not how to analyze/think! I have witnessed outstanding teachers create games for kindergarten students of average ability - solving for missing addends and subtrahends. Those games were their warm up games for a day filled with wonderful activities to stimulate thinking. A person with a Ph.D in math, is of no use in a classroom if he/she does not have the ability to impart knowledge to others (teach). Improve the offerings of schools of education; accept only the BEST; reward outstanding teachers (comparable pay to other professions). This will take time - but meaningful involvement of parents, communities, education organizations and outstanding teachers can get the job done.

Teaching is just as important as healing. Improve our schools of education, don't close them!

S. Lindsey
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Not surprised...

...many have been saying the same thing for years... When they dumb down the test FOR TEACHERS to get more to pass and then dumb down the lessons well a phrase comes to mind... GIGO

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